Warrior Warrior aggressive tanking

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Comrade Uri, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. Comrade Uri

    Comrade Uri New Member

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    I have heard of this but have yet to see a guide for it as such. Only been tanking for 2 or 3 weeks now and the hardest thing tanked is ThornMarch Extreme so I am still very new to this so can anyone explain to a beginner what is aggressive tanking and how do I do it effectively?
     

  2. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    Keep threat through dps?

     

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  3. MasterBox

    MasterBox Scion

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    This is actually really good.

    Would you happen to know anything like this for paladin?

    I like having other viewpoints.
    Learning a thing or two here and there will ultimately make me a better tank.
     

  4. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    I actually don't play PLD as much as I should so I can't say for sure if there is something like this for PLD. I'm sure the premise would be the same but PLD doesn't really have any DPS boosting abilities outside Sword Oath. PLD is usually main tanking anyways and dropping Shield Oath for Sword Oath is not recommended for obvious reasons. You probably can get away with it on dungeons but not for high end boss raids.

    I've been following Xeno for awhile because he is such an awesome warrior. :dreamy:
     

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  5. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    I am pretty certain you can't do anything like this with PLD.

    At lower levels, GLA/PLD is really difficult to play due to the lack of AoE skills (especially before acquiring Rage of Halone at lvl 26). Most GLA can't keep aggro over 3 mobs in dungeons, resulting in 2 loose mobs attacking healers and DPS. Most GLA don't utilize "Flash" too well. Although, "Flash" has been buffed, and it's easier now.
    In contrast, low level MRD/WAR is relatively easier to play due to the early availability of "Overpower". The keeping of aggro over multiple targets is relatively easy.


    Post-lvl 50, PLD is all about damage mitigation. It doesn't have as much HP pool, but def stats is much higher due to the use of shield.
    Basic PLD combos includes the:
    (1) "Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone" combo and
    (2) "Fast Blade -> Riot Blade" combo.
    The Halone combo maximizes aggro generation on a single target (especially in combination with Fight or Flight). The Riot Blade combo gives almost no aggro, and is only useful for MP recovery. Thus, PLD usually just stick to combo #1. Combo #2 is rarely used in high level raids.

    PLD has many, many, many non-GCD skills for damage mitigation / HP recovery, like Rampart, Foresight (crossed from MRD), Bloodbath (crossed from MRD), Bulwark, Sentinel, Awareness, Convalescence, and the ultimate Hallowed Ground (Tempered Will doesn't help with mitigation or HP, but helps maintain position or shake off effects like slow from Morbols). Each of these can last from 10 to 30 seconds. A PLD can pop these skills one after another (or sometimes 2 at once, if situation is dire), and she/he will be tough like a rock.

    Since PLD can never do much damage anyway, there's only 1 build for PLD - the Vitality build. You can have slightly more Strength to increase damage and help with aggro, but the amount of damage that a PLD can do is still very limited.

    In this sense, post-50 PLD is actually relatively easy to play comparing to WAR. PLD is simpler. It's rock solid. It's safe. It gives relatively less burden to healers too.


    Post-lvl50, WAR splits into the Vitality build and the Strength build.

    Vitality build is all about eating that incoming damage with a massive HP pool. This build creates a massive meat shield that can tank as good as a PLD, but since it suffers massive injuries, it is quite a burden to healers.

    Strength build has less HP to buffer injuries, and is all about generating more DPS to result in higher HP recovery. This build requires the WAR to know the mechanics very, very well. The WAR has to pop specific combination of skills at the right time to boost that HP recovery as well as that damage mitigation.

    Basic WAR combo includes the:
    (1) "Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butcher's Block" combo,
    (2) "Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Storm's Path" combo, and
    (3) "Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Storm's Eye" combo.

    (1) is a WAR's most reliable, solid aggro generation combo on a single target.
    (2) increases damage (which will also help with aggro later), recovery HP and reduce injury.
    (3) increases damage (which will also help with aggro later), and reduces target's HP recovery and slashing resistance (which will also help with damage and aggro).
    Unlike PLD, WAR actually needs to alternate between these combo.

    WAR has Foresight and Bloodbath (non-GCD skills), which are kind of the bread and butter for basic damage mitigation and HP recovery.

    However, the true difference between a good WAR and an average WAR lies in whether the WAR knows how to combo up his remaining non-GCDs, and skills that come from "Infuriated" status (5 stacks of Wrath). These skills include:
    Unchained, Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Berserk, Vengeance, and Infuriate.

    Unchained, Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone can only be activated under "Infuriated" status.
    Berserk and Vengeance are non-GCDs that can be popped any time.
    Infuriate grants the Infuriated status immediately.

    Unchained -> increases DPS
    Inner Beast -> One big blow + HP recovery + damage mitigation for 6 sec
    Steel Cyclone -> AoE damage

    In addition, WAR has Fracture as a DoT skill, which allows even more DPS to be done.

    Whether you're on a Strength build or Vitality build, you still need to know when and how to use these skills for critical dangerous moments. For instance, if you know there's constant injuries coming to your way, and you will need constant HP recovery for a bit, think about pairing Unchained ,Vengeance and Bloodbath. Unchained gives you stronger DPS, Vengeance reduces 30% damage, and returns an attack to the target every time you suffer damage, and Bloodbath converts all that damage you deal into HP recovery. WAR combos can really be pretty sick. Another example, Inner Beast not only allow you to do a big hit on your target, it also lets you convert that damage into HP recovery, and then grants you 6 seconds of 20% defense boost. So if you have the damage buff from Maim active, and combo it with Berserk, and even pop Internal Release (cross class from Pugilist to increase crit rate), your Inner Beast can help you do a ton of damage and recovery a big chunk of HP, and still allow you to have 6 more seconds of damage mitigation. So if you know 2 or 3 strong attacks are coming in your way, you want to time it right so that you get that 5 stacks of Wrath for Inner Beast right before those attacks happen. After the 1st incoming attack, your Inner Beast blow will do huge damage and recover a big chunk of HP, and then for the 2nd & 3rd incoming attacks, your few seconds of Inner Beast damage mitigation will come into play. This kind of planning & game play requires a lot of experience and practice. My WAR is on a Vitality build, and I can still do about 1200 damage on my Inner Beast blow when it crits. It means I can recover 1200 HP instantly, and still have 6 more seconds of 20% damage mitigation after that. Just imagine how much HP a Strength build WAR can recover...

    PLD, in contrast, is much easier to handle. If you know the strong attack is coming, you just click 1 or 2 buttons for defensive buffs, and you're fine, and even the shortest buffs like Hallowed Ground and Sentinel can last for 10 sec. So there's more room in the timing for error than WAR.

    Strength build WAR is risky on the sense that you don't have much room for mistakes - or you just die because you don't have as much HP pool and you don't have PLD's damage mitigation. But if you play a Strength build well, not only will you be doing massive damage (reducing the burden of DPS's), you will also be recovering much more HP than a Vitality build, thus reducing the burden of healers to spend as much MP on healing you. The result is the healer will have much more MP to heal the rest of the party, keeping some DPS alive, which may ultimately determine the win or loss of a raid. In some cases, you can even substitute a DPS in the party with a third healer, creating more flexibility.

    A Vitality build WAR is fine too. It can't do as much damage as a Strength build WAR, but it can still use exactly the same skills/rotations as a Strength build WAR to do DPS, damage mitigation and HP recovery. It can't hit as hard or recover as much HP. But it has a much larger HP pool to buffer damage. In fact, the effect of "Thrill of Battle" is much stronger for a Vitality build WAR than a Strength build WAR. In a dire situation, it can be a life-saver.

    I am copying and pasting Xeno's Strength WAR opening rotation here for everyone to analyze:
    Infuriate -> (run to target) Tomahawk -> Brutal Swing ->
    Heavy Swing -> Unchained -> Maim -> Berserk -> Storm's Eye ->
    Internal Release -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butcher's Block ->
    Fracture -> Heavy Swing -> Brutal Swing ->
    Inner Beast (or Steel Cyclone) -> Maim -> Storm's Eye
     

    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  6. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

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    Idk much about WAR, but imo the difference between a good WAR and a bad WAR is first and foremost survival. I've seen WARs survive long periods without heals in some pretty crazy circumstances, but I can't tell you how many WAR's who bite off more than they can handle and get carried by my WHM with PoM and DS popped, unable to keep up spamming Cure II and having to make perfect use of Bene and swiftcast. With a good WAR of equal gear in the same circumstance I can Holy spam large groups, which I'm sure is more overall DPS for the group.

    For PLD I fully support more STR ad DPS acessories if you're running content that you outgear (which is usually the case).. In dungeons I have shield oath up for large pulls, sword oath for small pulls, and sword oath for most bosses. I'm also in the habit of swapping to Sword Oath in primal/boss phases where I'm not going to be taking accessive damage, or during DPS checks and I'll just make sure to have defensive buffs up. Though in fights like Titan HM for example, you mmay want to run in with Shield Oath, establish aggro, THEN swap to Sword Oath if you can get ahead by a bit; otherwisee a good NIN or BLM (maybe BRD?) might rip from you early on.

    In any case, if you're sacrificing survival for more DPS, make sure you're not hurting the overall DPS. If the healer WAS DPSing well and now can't because they have to spam heal you, its probably not an overall increase.
     

  7. Comrade Uri

    Comrade Uri New Member

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    These replies are great, thanks everyone!

    I have only just come into post 50 tanking and though I can hold my own I know I am lacking in certain areas. I have watched Xenos guide but although I love what I see and know where to aim for but I'm not there yet to impliment it. It's like I have passed my driving test and now you want me to drift race, I need to build up to it, though the gear guide is amazing and I'm am trying to use it now
     

    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
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  8. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

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    I've branched off the more PLD-specific discussions to a new thread,
    "PLD Q&A"
    to try and keep both good topics rolling and organized.
     

  9. Comrade Uri

    Comrade Uri New Member

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    Could also re branch this and rename it WAR Q&A?
     

  10. Ivy

    Ivy Bounty Hunter II

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    Since in the thread @GeekMatt linked, he does state that he doesn't want to be a better PLD DPS...
    You can tank T10 in Sword Oath, but you would swap to Shield for adds (of course). Endgame raid content is pretty easy once you are outgeared. T13 is a joke compared to T9 in terms of mechanics (though I don't think you can quite tank that one in Sword...lol).
    ---
    I will say, if you are looking to be a high end raid WAR, like Matt said, being a good tank > max deeps. For example...in T13, WARs don't do much outside of P2 and P3 (you can't attack Bahamut here in P3 anyways). But if you are trying to get off that one last hit on Bahamut in P2, and the add spawns...well...
    [​IMG]
    tl;dr your SCH will hate you for the mana or your WHM will be dead on the floor. Now, of course, this is the highest current endgame content, but the same can be said in things like World of Darkness. Cerberus, third boss. You pick up adds that have a nasty poison. If you don't pick them up...probably a wipe. WAR DPS are badass, but always make sure that you're doing your first job, which is being a badass tank.
     

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