Warrior Str, Str, and more Str!

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Genesiser, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    Every single time you die, your HP falls below 540. Every single time you die, there's a chance you could have lived long enough for the next heal if you had 10% more HP. A pretty good chance, in fact. It doesn't work the way you seem to think, there isn't some magical point where more HP is worthless unless you're fighting content so easy that you simply can't die.

    It's been pointed out repeatedly: 30 str gives a laughably small amount of damage and parry. The damage is especially irrelevant because it's not a tank's job and because warriors in particular have no problems whatsoever with aggro, and 30 str isn't even guaranteed to take you to the next parry or damage breakpoints -- they're both more than 30 points apart.

    Completely incorrect and frankly absurd. You clearly have no idea about tanking mechanics and priorities. I really wish clueless people would stop perpetuating utter nonsense and misleading other players.

    If anything is potentially wasted, it's the strength because there's a chance it won't let you reach the next breakpoints and thus can give you literally nothing at all whereas vitality is always a benefit and is very important at all times except when you're doing something so easy that there's no chance of dying. I don't think I need to further elaborate on how utterly, staggeringly wrong you are. What you said is not only incorrect but actually the complete polar opposite of the truth.

    30 vitality gives a level 50 warrior +540 HP, which is nearly 10% of what the average 50 warrior has. Would you trade 10% HP for 1% more DPS and less than 1% additional damage mitigation on parry? I would certainly hope not. 10% HP is better by several orders of magnitude. I would still take the 30 vit even if it gave only half the HP that it does.
     

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  2. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    Warriors aren't normal tanks is the problem and we'll have to see what happens..But from what i know we're VERY similar to Blod Death Knights in Wrath in that we survive in part THROUGH damage not just hp tanking....

    If we can do even slightly more damage we can heal ourselves even a bit more. Thing is YOUR mindset is in classic tanking styles and if we were say paladins then yep you'd definitely be right but self healing tanks that employ damage to aid heals tend to have unusual and often debated stat requirements....We'll see what happens but overall a mix is likely best.
     

  3. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    No it isn't. Vitality is better by orders of magnitude. The strength gives practically nothing while vitality is literally the most important stat for tanks in this game. I don't see how this can be so difficult to accept. There's no "we'll see what happens," what is it you expect is going to spontaneously happen? 30 strength gives so little damage that the increased self-healing is effectively non-existent, and self-healing isn't an important source of survivability anyway. I'm stunned that anyone can fail to comprehend something so simple.
     

  4. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    And i;m stunned you can't comprehend more then one way to play and be viable or that sometimes classic rules need to be tossed out.
     

  5. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    Oh, would you shut up? You start out saying one thing, then completely turn around and claim you were saying another when disproven. It's not a discussion about whether strength is viable, it's about whether or not it's the best. It has been categorically, emphatically and incontestibly proven not to be better than vitality. Do you understand or are you going to continue repeating nonsense and abusing straw man arguments? Vitality is better than strength for a tank. Every time you disagree, you make yourself look increasingly unintelligent.
     

  6. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    And you just made yourself out to be an ass...Heh the point is these are not your classic tanks. I've played ALOT of unusual tanks and sometimes health/defense isn't the best stat for a tank depending on how it is made.

    For instance in world of warcraft Blood DKs employed ALOT of VERY similar mechanics and for them going strength over defense was the best option. For monks lets say agility and crit are very nice or were at least.

    Now will warriors work out this way? I don't know but the fact this debate even exists should show you some things. I don't know yet what the most viable will be or what will happen in the future but overall looking into multiple options is best...Also i am running a mixed strength and vit build right now.
     

  7. Noilane

    Noilane Adventurer

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    Hey Guys!

    Just want to share my opinion to this topic :)
    First Things first i am a level 50 Warrior who Tanked Titan and is Raiding in The Binding Coil of Bahamut (AS A FKN WARRIOR (feeling like the last of our kind on Shiva))

    All i can say is the 30 STR u gain is not worth since u wont reach any noticeble breakpoints.

    A little list of 30VIT PROS
    -More Health
    -Higher Traited Stoneskin (my WHM only uses Stoneskin and Regen on me in Amdapor the rest of the time he can do some dps even on bosses)
    -Higher Survivability
    -Epeen (8k HP in Raids while our pally has 5.5k trololol)

    the thing most people forget about warriors is that we are Meatshealds we live through our HIGH HP Pool!
    Stuff like Inner Beast (and other Selfheals) are only for Backup for example

    Titan Hardmode:
    Most Healers Cry and don't want Warriors to tank (well we have a bad rep cuz of many baddies)
    The Hardest Part is the Rockbuster Tableflip combo
    Landslide -> Rockbuster ->Tableflip


    I absorb the Whole Rockbuster with the Stoneskin while the Tableflip deals something about 3.5k DMG okay with my bravura+1 my inner beast heals me for about 1.2k+ 3.5 -1.2 =2.3k DMG
    Right after that i use Infuriate to get my 15% extra healing up
    1Heal from our WHM and i am back with topped hp :3

    just wanted to post an example

    so whatever anybody say

    DON'T GO FOR 30STR IT IS A WASTE OF POINTS!
     

  8. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    Looking at a mix these days honestly. I think alot of us are.
     

  9. Maxism

    Maxism Adventurer

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    All VIT. STR is utterly garbage for WAR. 1% more damage? Poor. Mixing points is really silly as well as it's pretty much indecision or just wishful thinking that STR is comparable to VIT. As much as I enjoy the idea of using STR to hit harder to heal more, it doesn't work.

    Please stop drawing comparisons to Blood DKs, this is not WoW. The Warrior is not self-sustaining to any meaningful degree and his skills are only to relieve spikes in damage.

    The only reason why this debate exists is because the benefits of each point of STR was unclear. Since it's now shown to contribute approximately 1% more damage, it's clear a larger base hp pool by 540 points wins any day of the week especially when Defiance increases this further.

    If you had a bigger pool it means heals are given more room to do their thing, this means moving around, healing others and making sure things don't ever get too tight. As there is less chance of getting RNG critted/burst and sent home in a box - invested VIT is never a waste.

    If you want to allocate STR, by all means go ahead. Just know that having an 101% damage Inner Beast stocked and ready to go is not very useful when you're already dead.
     

  10. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    I actually find the 15 STR 15 Vit build to be working very well for me so far. I have had no complaints that concern that and it does help with threat as well..Overall it seems to be a nice build.
     

  11. Maxism

    Maxism Adventurer

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    I wouldn't call it a build. The way I see it is you decided to play a WAR with 300 less HP than my WAR. That's about it.

    I'm sure no one could draw a comparison between our damage in any case and would only be able to tell our difference pools if we were both in the same party and they had a calulator out.

    I feel quite strongly against STR. VIT just fits the bill in terms of making you better at your job. Against better judgement I went 10 STR, 20 VIT during my leveling and when I tanked HM's, I just wanted pure VIT. 10k seals for 10 more VIT because I really felt gimped by pumping STR.

    STR is giving you the illusion of better aggro management. It's really all in your MND.
     

  12. SorriorDragneel

    SorriorDragneel Adventurer

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    Well at least for Ifrit i'm not having any problems and even get complimented for my management of CDs and health...Sooo yeah. It's all about what works for you IMO.
     

  13. Scape

    Scape Crystal Brave

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    I was going to go all STR but changed my mind. At 50 WAR ended up with 19 VIT/11STR.
     

  14. Genesiser

    Genesiser Adventurer

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    I guess I should admit, when I first created this thread I was under the impression that this game would work like pretty much every other mmo in the sense that if you add more str, you'll have a linear increase in your damage. However, instead the devs decided to prevent us from becoming super over powered later on in the game by creating "tiers". That is to say... instead of doing .05 bonus damage every point of str (just some random numbers), you would instead need say 30 points of str to get .05 bonus damage and any amount less than that 30 will give you zero increase in damage until you hit that magical 30 to bump you up to the next "tier".

    Because of the way the game is setup, warriors will never scale well when you look at their self healing as a serious way to mitigate damage. Now, if this game worked like every other game, then perhaps it would be a viable option because you could have a continuous increase in damage and a continuous increase in self healing. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and warrior stat options for your main stats are pretty much go Vit so you always get a benefit. The downside of this is that it pretty much forces warriors to be nothing more than mp sponges because all you have going for you is high hp with low mitigation/options to mitigate damage.
     

  15. Noilane

    Noilane Adventurer

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    [​IMG]

    thats how i felt after reading your post :/
    1: Warrior is at the Moment the best class (gear scaling)
    2: Those Tiers are not 30Points away it is more like 10 points
    4: A Well played and Geared Warrior will be prefered by every healer in the current endgame since their hp is so fkn high and the selfheal gets stronger with every piece of gear u get


    sry if i sound a little bit bitchy but i had a discussion about warrior tanks yesterday in a linkshell and some douchebag healers still hate warriors since they are dumb as f**k
     

  16. JeckylTesla

    JeckylTesla Crystal Brave

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    Mathematically wise, Warriors lack mitigation. This in itself is a fact. At this point in time, WARs take too much damage to tank any of the main bosses (Cad pre-split, Dreadnoughts) in Coil.

    VIT is the only way to go.

    Oh, and Ifrit HM is not the best place to determine on STR vs VIT. Get to coil, then we can have a discussion.
    Seriously. Like wat. Healers are bad if they don't like healing the tank class that takes UNMITIGATED DAMAGE? Lol.

    It doesn't matter how much HP you have, you have no defence cooldowns that are even worth mentioning and you take full damage. At this point in time, WARs do not have access to gear that will make us tanky enough to main tank in Coil.
     

  17. Noilane

    Noilane Adventurer

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    sry to disapoint you but i am Maintanking in Coil (currently stuck like everyone in turn 5)
     

  18. JeckylTesla

    JeckylTesla Crystal Brave

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    So you're tanking the 2 Dreadnaughts in Turn 4? I call BS, I want to see a video because at the current gear level it isn't possible.

    That is unless you have full 90ilvl gear?
     

  19. Noilane

    Noilane Adventurer

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    well i can prove this next id since we killed turn 4 allready this week if u want i can put up a life stream for you
     

  20. JeckylTesla

    JeckylTesla Crystal Brave

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    Yes. As I said, I want to see you MAIN tanking. As in tanking Cad pre-split and tanking the two dreadnaughts. Hell even tanking Twintania.

    We can off tank perfectly fine.

    Also what is your gear and what is your attribute allocations. Cause I find it hard to believe you've figured out a way to tank the two dreadnaughts when no other WAR tank has.
     

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