Warrior Str, Str, and more Str!

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Genesiser, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Genesiser

    Genesiser Adventurer

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    Alright, so after playing the beta and going to different websites to find out about the different classes, I have decided to main a warrior tank. I have tanked in just about every other mmo I've played throughout the years and over the years I have realized that just going all out HP, (or in this case, vit) is sort of a waste of stats and it's better to go for more defensive stats. In this case, after looking up the skills of the warrior, str is going to play an important role in damage mitigation, so for now I am going to go all out str.

    Now when you think mitigation stats, the mitigation stat would normally be block or parry, but in the case of warriors, it would be parry. Parry is a nice stat because it helps you mitigate a bit of damage, roughly 25% of the damage done to you when you do parry, however that's it - and I don't really see warriors getting absurdly high parry chances, at most a 25% chance and that's if you stack the heck out of it. So instead of enchanting the gear with parry, it will be enchanted with strength.

    So the ultimate reason I will be doing str as opposed to vit or parry is because of how warriors true mitigation works. The more damage you do, the more you heal yourself for (A move that has potency of 250 and heals you for 50% of dmg done). The more damage you do, the bigger shield absorption you get (requires 5 stacks of wrath (~every 20 seconds) 300 potency, create shield that absorbs 300% of dmg done). Unlike say a DK from wow where your self healing/absorption came from mastery stat + max hp, this game decided to go the route of the damage you do.

    Anyway, in the end I don't really believe that warriors will have to stack vit because ultimately the big damage moves will more than likely be an avoidable move in the first place. Add on the fact that by NOT stacking vit you will have about the same HP as a pally tank that did stack vit, you really won't have much problems. The self healing and absorbing the warrior does should come close to that of the mitigation of the pally's block and parry, and the plus side is there will be quite a bit more damage coming out from the warrior which helps kill bosses faster - I know people don't think that matters, but with bosses having enrage timers, it actually can make a difference.

    Of course, for now this is all speculation... I'm going to test it out and see how it performs and I'm not against changing my characters materia on gear if this doesn't work out. With that said, this will be my mindset in at least the beginning of the game. My buddy is going healer and later on in the game I'm going to have him run instances with other warrior tanks that go the vit/parry/little str route to see what he finds as an easier tank type to heal.
     

  2. RoseFaithful

    RoseFaithful Crystal Brave

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    Considering that the MAR/WARs take spike damage when tanking I think a VIT build is more useful to them. The self healing from what I've read tends to go by your max HP, so if your HP pool is to small you're going to be rising your neck (and the groups) more. The PLD's HP pool is not, imo, something a WAR/MRD should compare themselves to as with the PLD you're wanting to mitigated the damage you take, not soak it up.

    I'm not saying getting out of the way from X-move is impossible or anything, but it is better to be hit yourself then to say turn the boss 180. You might end up catching up on VIT via accessories and whatnot. Still, should be fun to test! Best of luck.
     

  3. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    I decided that strength just isn't worth it. It's worth even less to warriors than to paladins due to the fact that you get nothing out of the block bonus. The damage difference appears to be minimal, in the neighbourhood of 1%, so that's hardly a consideration at all for a tank. More importantly, the argument for lifesteal is flawed since only one or two sources of warrior self-healing are based on damage dealt whereas quite a few grant a percentage of your maximum HP and thus benefit from vitality instead. The amount of HP gained from 30 points of vitality is definitely noticeable while the benefits of 30 strength appear to be completely negligible.

    See this:
    [​IMG]

    The sample size isn't huge (and note that one parse is a few minutes longer than the other) but it's enough to draw a conclusion, and it consistently indicates that the 30 strength grants around 1% damage. Simply not worth sacrificing 400+ HP for, and given the paladin's superior mitigation, I think it'll be important to maintain a HP advantage in order to compensate for the warrior's otherwise poor defensive properties. Considering how many mechanics benefit from a higher max HP, I think it's hard to justify not focusing on this. The tank shouldn't be sacrificing tanking stats in favor of damage output, and especially not when the trade-off is so unimpressive.
     

    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
    RoseFaithful and Lexian like this.
  4. Draven

    Draven Adventurer

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    So there's been some changes to warrior since the beta

    Mr.Happy is saying STR plays a bigger part now but i don't obviously know it to be true because i haven't got my warrior yet. What do you guys think about what hes said?

    Warrior starts at 4:41
     

  5. Genesiser

    Genesiser Adventurer

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    Thanks for the parser Larson, but how old is that test anyway? I'm asking because it is only doing a few of the skills the warrior would do and not all of them. If it's old, perhaps the damage modifiers have changed since then? I just say that because 30 str, while not a huge amount, makes very little difference - like, very negligible to the point where it just doesn't make sense.
     

  6. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    I don't know if the parse was collected before or after that, but it was posted yesterday on another forum. It seems to have been done specifically for the purpose of testing the difference of 30 strength, which would explain why so few abilities were used.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 21, 2013, Original Post Date: Aug 21, 2013 ---
    It doesn't seem like strength was actually buffed, they just buffed the amount of life you steal with a couple of abilities and the frequency with which you can use them. I don't really see how MrHappy arrives at the conclusion that this makes strength a lot more viable. He seems to base it on some very arbitrary things and doesn't justify it very well, which is common in his videos. If the numbers are still as in the above parse, it would seem that it remains negligible.
     

    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  7. Genesiser

    Genesiser Adventurer

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    Well luckily in terms of stat points that you put into your stats, it's only 30 by the time you reach level 50 so if you put it in str instead of vitality, you'd only be losing out on 240 hp (300 hp when in defiance) and that amount isn't going to make much of a difference anyway. When it comes to materia, that's where we can really play around with it to see how much of a difference it actually makes. You can put materia on what, 6 pieces of gear? So that'd be 12 slots of either 12x7 str for 84 str or 12x8 for 96 vit (768 hp base and 960 in tanking stance). So ultimately, we are looking at 114 str vs 1008 hp (1260 hp in defiance) if you go all of one or the other. I guess we just have to wait and see how much of a difference that much str would have on your two main mitigation moves which are Storms Path (250 potency, heal for 50% of dmg you deal to enemy) and Inner Beast (300 potency, absorption shield = to 300% dmg done).
     

  8. Skillusionist

    Skillusionist Adventurer

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    Well looking at that parser and comparing it to my experience in P3/P4. I have to say I am very suspicious.
    Parsers are great tools but they aren't the end all and be all of data collection and there is just not enough information to really explain those numbers.
    What kind of mobs were being attacked? Were they the same level? Are the Vit and Str Warriors two different characters or is it one guy simulating the 30 point difference by swapping gear? In both cases is the sets of gear identical or is there a slight differences that could obscure the numbers? And the list goes on. There are just so many variables to take into consideration and testing even with a parser has to be under very very controlled conditions as even the smallest differences can add up to rather large miscalculations.

    I mean I played LNC and MRD in both phases and the little 10 str+ or so that I got my from gear was enough to make a noticeable increase in my damage. Not a big one but it was still noticeable. So if 30str was really in the 1-2% range, I'd have not seen such increases in my damage even by the forever fallible eyeball standards with just 10 or less str equipped.

    http://www.daevaofwar.net/index.php?/topic/293-damage-formula-and-mechanics/

    Now this post uses a lot of math that quite honestly goes over my head. But one thing stood out. That a difference of 111 str made a 32% increase in their auto attack. Which by my very lazy math standards would be in the range of .3% increase for every 1 str. Which actually looked about right when I was playing but eh, I haven't done any testing myself.

    But Mr. Happy's logic goes like this. 450 extra hp is nice but that is not the big deal. The big deal is the natural regen it gives you. The added 9 hp every 3 seconds doesn't sound like much but over the course of a long hard fight it can account for a lot of free hp. So the measure of how effective str's bonus has to be is if it can boost War's melee based healing enough to over come the 9hp per 3 second threshold.

    As he said the real thing that makes a chance is the buff Storm's Path has gotten. 250 potency and 50% heal. You can short combo it as Maim > Storm's Path. So that is basically one 2.5 second GCD and you get the heal. So lets say, for hypothetical reasons, that 1 str = .3% increase in damage. 30 str = 9% damage boost if you take defiance into account that 450 becomes 540 and the regen 11 hp and some change. And lets say you do 100 damage to an enemy in one swing.

    Normally your Storm's path would do 250 damage and heal you for 125 health. With 30 str boost Your storms path would do 272.5 and heal you for 136.25. That is a difference of 11.25 health. Then you add in tools like Blood Bath, Inner Beast, Berserker, Internal Release, and Second Wind (which is not based off of attack damage rather than max health)... all of those boost a warriors self healing and scale with how much damage you do NOT how much health you have.

    Now does that mean STR > VIT. I say not really. STR increases your active healing... VIT increases your passive healing. What this means is you're not going to be spamming your healing 100% of the time, you have to use your aggro tools and if playing correctly maximizing your rotation to do as much damage as possible and then you'll be running around avoiding AOE attacks or gathering adds, etc. This is where VIT has the advantage as while its just a humble 9hp regen it is 9 hp regen that you don't have to think about that is active ALL the time and is basically free hp. Also the added health is useful for those heavy pulls so you can live long enough to build that initial hate without the healer having to cure-bomb you too early and risk you loosing control of the threat management.

    The way I see it. STR has better up front benefits and VIT is more of your 'spare tire' investment where you won't notice it as much and you'll rarely ever truly need it but those moments you do, you'll be so so glad you did. And with only a 30 point investment you can't go wrong with either one as neither will make or break your character. When it comes to choosing my opinion is if you like to solo a lot go STR if you are purely a party person, take the VIT. And if you are leveling both MRD and GLD then go STR on your MRD. If you need the extra durability PLD has it in spades, so for versatility maximize what your MRD can do.

    I personally plan to go pure VIT until lvl 38. And when I get Storm's Path pay for the respec and invest into STR. Vit is just the better investment until you get all your leet self healing skills. And it also gives me time to do my own testing on STR to see if its worth making the conversion.
     

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  9. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    Well, given that the stat system doesn't do fractional bonuses but rather bumps you by 1% when you reach the next threshold, it makes sense that it would only be 1% damage. Maybe you can cover two thresholds and get 2% if the numbers come out that way, I don't know. Still seems underwhelming.

    This, by the way, might also mean that race matters a little more than people tend to think. If that extra three dex ends up being what lets you meet the next threshold and get +1% parry, it's worth more than it seems when looking at it as three out of several hundreds. This would be less tangible, of course, as it depends on your gear and might mean nothing half the time.
     

    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  10. Taimoor

    Taimoor Adventurer

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    This is a great conversation. We need some of our level 50 brethren to post some combat logs so we are look at some "real world" numbers.
     

  11. Grembo

    Grembo Crystal Brave

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    I tried a full strength build but at around level 42 it started to feel unmanageable, you really have to juggle your skills to keep your health topped up whereas I had little time to build hate (having to overuse storms path over emnity building combo).
     

  12. caucel

    caucel Crystal Brave

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    So what is the better points distribution? 60/40? Vit/str 70/30?
     

  13. GenRiur

    GenRiur Crystal Brave

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    I wouldn't go the full STR build at all, I try keep the ratio in what I add/gear towards at about STR2:1VIT.

    As you get higher in level and head towards end game there are situations where you have to manage multiple mobs which chew through you at an alarming rate needing the healer to charge up a big heal, you may not be able to escape a big move in time, if the team gets AOE'd then you need the health to be able to stay alive while the healer tries to get everyone back on track. And might I mention we haven't even seen the kind of damage the big bosses will do upon release.

    The list goes on, I have had alot of people say to me that I am alot easier to heal and manage than many tank they have had including some full STR warriors in my LS. The only downfall I have found I have is that a full STR warrior will pull off me however no one else can. In the end a Warrior is a Tank, Tanks need health.

    those are my two cents.
     

  14. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    Aggro is such a piece of cake and survivability such a huge concern for warriors that I don't think it's possible to justify anything other than full vit if you discuss it in terms of what's objectively better. The strength makes practically no difference, certainly not a visible benefit, whereas 30 vit gives 540 HP when a level 50 warrior has, what, 6000? That's a huge bonus to your most important stat vs. a negligible bonus to a stat that already didn't really matter. You get hardly any damage out of 30 str, you wouldn't need the extra enmity either way, and the bonus to block is also minimal. There can be no argument for the min-maxer, only a question of preference for the sub-optimal if one wants str over HP on a tank class.
     

  15. caucel

    caucel Crystal Brave

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    So what do you think is the relation? Or you put all points in vit?
     

  16. Larsen

    Larsen Adventurer

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    All vit. It's simply better. However, it's still just 30 points so it's a small difference at the end of the day.
     

  17. Grembo

    Grembo Crystal Brave

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    Here's the thing, the actual amount of HP difference between a VIT build and a STR one seems minimal when you look at the numbers but it actually makes quite a lot of difference in battle. The enemies hit hard in later dungeons and end game content, any extra HP makes both the healers and tanks jobs easier.

    Warriors that think STR might be worthwhile should just save the hassle and go DPS.
     

  18. Yin Finity

    Yin Finity Adventurer

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    Another thing regarding STR and HP recovery (slightly related to post).

    I think people do not understand that you will definitely NOT be using inner beast ON CD every CD. And storm's path is okay but is also not being spammed (in order to keep up damage, fracture, threat, maim, etc). You also get a 15% heal increase on you when you have V stacks. And on most bosses the amount you will be receiving from that 15% from healers (esp in 8mans and eventually 24mans) is probably worth more than your own heal from inner beast. I use it more to top back off when I know a big damage spike is up, then immediately refresh with infuriate (i.e. ifirt breath, void thunder 3, etc).

    VIT is key. You will get STR and VIT on ALL of your items, so it is not like you will be hurting in either department. But from an endgame raiding/dungeon standpoint, I would say VIT is hands down better.
     

  19. Ingrid

    Ingrid Crystal Brave

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    I've taken a balanced approach but I'm going to be investing more into VIT. I'm hoping to do this and damage at the same time.[​IMG]
     

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  20. Taimoor

    Taimoor Adventurer

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    VIT is wasted unless your HP fall below the total amount gained by stacking VIT. So in the case of the 30 bonus points unless your HP is constantly falling below 540 hp (18hp per VIT for WAR) than the extra VIT is almost completely wasted. I say almost because it does mean and extra 11hp/5sec in auto regen.

    STR on the other hand is never wasted. It equates to more DPS (faster kills/more enmity), Increased Healing from IB and SP, and higher Parry. The last two are a minor benefit.

    It stands that STR is never wasted while VIT is almost always a wasted stat. Other than your ego the only thing a crazy high HP pool increases is your ability to survive in an "Oh s**t" moment where you are out of CDs and and extra 700hp is what it takes to to kill a boss. Those occurrences are very rare, though they do happen.
     

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