The Great MMO Paradox

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kagato, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. The47thSen

    The47thSen Well Known Member

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    Unfortunately, that is so true.
    "That's your problem, not mine" :(
  2. Krystalmyth

    Krystalmyth New Member

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    I saw my first advertisement for a healer selling runs on Balmung. Made me very sad. I'm in my level 30s, but I don't plan on raiding in this game. Once I reach max on a few classes, I question whether this is the kind of culture I want to be entering in 2013.

    I did all of this before. It's not exactly glamorous and exciting. If there is any time I regret in my life, it's the weeks and weeks of endgame raiding in WoW for gear I barely remember the names to. Especially when they're so dry and inaccessible people have to SELL runs to them.

    That's Final Fantasy culture? Was it like his in XI? Depressing, and a real shame to see of what people once said was one of the best mmo communities in the world.
  3. Cynessae

    Cynessae Active Member

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    As others have mentioned, you can't really "speed run" WP any longer, in the general sense of the term. You can kill faster, but that's about it.

    The 2nd boss is a joke now (they lowered the HP of the boss and the adds), so if that's what they're concerned about, they need to take some Xanax. The last boss is a piece of cake, even doing it the "right way". I did WP a total of six times the last two nights. Granted, it was with one of my usual "static parties" of friends, but three of them were on new level 50 classes playing something other than their main, including the tank and healer (our usual tank was the healer, and our tank for these runs usually plays a BLM - both of which were in full AF and level 40-ish jewelry).

    No problems whatsoever. No issues on the last boss, if played right. None. People need to not get their panties in a twist. It's starting to look ridiculous and desperate, like they need over-geared players because they aren't good enough to do it without.
  4. Nichigo

    Nichigo Content Moderator

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    I can relate to what everyone's saying, but I think alot of people are missing the point.

    "Those people" aren't saying you're undergeared for the dungeon.
    "Those people" are saying you're undergeared for how fast they want to go.

    It's ridiculous, yes, but I've run with relic/relic +1 groups, and it IS significantly faster than "undergeared" groups. Minutes are shaved off of each run. And with how many times SE makes us grind these dungeons, I'm not surprised that people would want to get them over with as quickly as possible.

    It's the difference between having to kill the bees that spawn at the wall and not seeing them spawn at all.
    It's the difference between running around dodging shanker Tonberries and killing mobs so fast the shankers never can catch you.

    Do I agree with people giving people flak for not being overgeared? NO

    ...but don't underestimate the differences in speed between an overgeared group or one that is just geared enough/undergeared to make yourselves feel better. It IS faster to be well-equipped. But everyone should be ready to work with whatever they get...especially if they're using the Duty Finder.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
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  5. Brandon Copeland

    Brandon Copeland Active Member

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    I have my relic with full darklight, and I STILL have problems with demon wall due to the damage dealt by the killer freakin bees. I always tell the group i'll LB both the bees to weaken them down, therefor we can work on the wall in phase 4 of the push. It's simple whenever they listen to someone who's done it MILLIONS of times.
  6. Hulvein Blitz

    Hulvein Blitz Active Member

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    That is the key point.

    They are using the DF, and then imposing their own requirements on the players it pairs them up with. I'm sure everyone is aware that being better geared = faster killing (even then, I've seen two similar geared BLM, perform a lot different). Just people are implementing their own requirements, and it makes it ridiculous.

    Even though I run relic +1, and when I notice the other DPS is good enough too. I always ask "LB Left, or focus boss?". As I've seen far too many tanks run in there, expecting an LB, or a pure focus etc.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
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  7. xusha

    xusha Well Known Member

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    My groups lately have been skipping the bees. And loving it haha. Even as a melee dps where the circles are oh so close to where I'm standing I have to be risky and hug the wall/edge to not get hit by the AoE.
  8. Nichigo

    Nichigo Content Moderator

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    I always ask what we're doing before the wall as well as I've been in multiple parties that do it multiple ways.

    @Brandon Copeland: Tell the tank to get both bees aggro, then pull them all the way up to the wall. You will have a "safe" zone right in front of the bile that will keep you from getting hit. You can easily focus down the wall even after the bees spawn if the tank manages them correctly (and use your LB on the wall instead of the bees).
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 17, 2013 ---
    Not everyone, hence why I posted. I see alot of people diverting to "it doesn't make that much of a difference" arguments. I do agree that the "gearing" stigma is a little too strong among the game's population right now. But those that don't agree with it still need to realize that there is a significant difference between those that are geared and those that are not. I see too many people downplay this difference in order to support their own point.
  9. metalwrath

    metalwrath Member

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    If gear is good enough in AK my usual strategy is rush the wall and let the healer eat the dirt during bees as they don't need to be alive if you're killing wall that fast XD
  10. Nichigo

    Nichigo Content Moderator

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    So apparently there's going to be an Item Level Restriction option for the Duty Finder in patch 2.1. Guess you won't have to worry about running into gear nazis soon.

    More info in the Letter from the Producer.
  11. Araye

    Araye Active Member

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    What is even worse is I read all day that these types of people want a "vote kick" implemented within DF. This way they can start a light party comprised of their FC and then vote kick those that do not meet their specifications for the run.

    The DF was created so that people could complete story content without having to sit there all night shouting in an a attempt to get a party together.

    Any usage outside of that intention is using the DF incorrectly. The game tells us "use the DF to enter SV". I haven't reached end game yet, but I highly doubt the game is going to say, "use DF to grief those less geared than you and ruin everyone's day".

    If you get the party you desire through DF great. But don't expect it and when disappointed, RUN THE DUNGEON at the pace of the slowest member. Don't cry when someone watches the movie. It's part of the game.

    All I see is these spoiled, entitlement-centric brats whining all day that people less skilled, less geared, less something want to play the game.

    If your intention is to form speed runs with gear requirements etc., then shout. Be as choosy as you like. Sit there all night. Maybe get on Lodestone and ask SE to implement a "Speed Run Finder", but do not screw up the method I use to complete my story and don't piss and moan about my existence in your party because YOU chose to use DF.

    Love ya,

  12. Balaur

    Balaur Active Member

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    iLevel restrictions didn't stop this elitism, snobbery from infecting WoW. You were still gatechecked even if you could get in with your gear, due to inflation of gear by wearing crappy items with higher iLevel. Right now, this is not much of an issue, but even wearing level 47-49 accessories for spiritbinding, my "iLevel" is still 90 because of my Relic +1. So the system looks to see the HIGHEST iLevel item you have to determine your rating. That's how you "get in." WoW used an ave. iLevel function and gearscore, but it was still manipulable.
  13. Nichigo

    Nichigo Content Moderator

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    Well, we'll have to wait and see how detailed the restrictions are and if they're customizeable or not. Too early to assume how it will function.

    Regardless, elitism will never go away. No one thing is going to fix that. I only stated that it would alleviate the issues with running into these types of people in the Duty Finder specifically.

    And fwiw...just having your relic +1 already satiates a large portion of the gear nazi population lol.
  14. Balaur

    Balaur Active Member

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    See, I can't even believe you said this. I'm reading it, and finding myself wondering what planet you're from. (Sorry, but I'm aghast.)

    I don't care how good of a tank you are, a tank who tosses his healer aside for some advantage is a pretty crappy tank. Your purpose is to hold aggro AGAINST other players, to keep it on you, not let them die.

    Our tanks grab the gnats with the wall while the DPS (incl. me) burn the wall. Even our healer shifts into Cleric Stance. And can still keep the tank up while the wall is bumrushed. But that's no reason for us to ignore any player when needed. I'd rather wipe the group and run it all together. No one learns a lesson or learns the fight without trial and error.
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  15. Nichigo

    Nichigo Content Moderator

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    I wasn't surprised at all. He's the same guy who said he's never marked a target before because it's the DPS's responsibility to know what to burn down (in this thread).
  16. Balaur

    Balaur Active Member

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    But I don't hold my Relic against others. I don't hold having full DL/equivalent/better against them. I understand that they, like I once had, were worse off. I deal with people trying to CS-rush Praetorium and STILL trying to speedrun Castrum or troll it, and it is no joy. So I try to give the lesser geared players that look like they know their stuff or need a helping hand that support, even against a sh*tty tank.

    I get pretty vocal in Praetorium when players try to rush when they also say they don't need to. Castrum ... I just try not to bother. The cesspool of Eorzea lies there, and within live only the worst of Ultros.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 17, 2013, Original Post Date: Oct 17, 2013 ---
    If I get a sense of the tank knowing his stuff, or that we're all familiar with one another and we all know what targets we'll be taking ahead without marking, it's okay.

    The problem is when the healer is asking the tank to mark, and he refuses. My sister says, quoting, "Behind every good tank is a great healer." No tank is awesome on his or her own. This is also why I'm willing to stand up to elitist tanks in Castrum and Prae, and how I can recognize a great tank: When he respects his healer.
  17. xusha

    xusha Well Known Member

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    Tanks like to kill some mobs prior to others. In AK, some tanks like to kill Hounds first others prefer to kill Bros first. I'm used to kill Hounds before, so it is confusing if they don't mark.
  18. metalwrath

    metalwrath Member

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    I've never been asked by a healer to mark mobs.To be honest it's never been an issue.If people don't know the run i'll just type before i take a group which mob to focus on first.If i see an issue with wrong mob being hit i just type it.I know it sounds like more effort but i'm just used to it that way from other games.I've never heard of marking in any MMO i've played before.And i'm not about to change that.Nobody dies from this in my parties btw.

    The thing about rushing Demon Wall like that was a joke.I wouldn't do that with people i don't know.We mess in dungeons when we are full fc group and do this kind of stuff.But just to make things more fun and interesting.Just like we do CM runs and praetorium sometimes in swimgear when we want a challenge.Or people in our fc on CM runs deliberatly charging ahead and locking others out and see if they can do the boss with 3 people XD.
  19. Balaur

    Balaur Active Member

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    I have to wait to see what the tank starts in on. I have to see how well the tank "holds" when the healer starts healing him, to determine when it is safe to begin unloading, that the tank can "hold."

    When it comes to AK, I've seen every type of mob be "the one." And that actually depends often on whether the group knows what can and cannot be slept. Mostly, Houndlights first in their packs because the Tank is trained to go after casters first, and Houndlights are casters; it matters not that they can be slept, and that most trans on the second and third floors can be slept. It just doesn't really happen. Tank takes unnecessary damage. I dunno. It allows me to use my AOE rotations, but that does murder on my resources when the tank chain pulls. So the upside has a downside.

    Floor One:
    Followers can be slept.
    Hippocerfs can be slept.
    Dullahans cannot be slept.

    Floor Two:
    Brontotaurs cannot be slept.
    Vodorigas can be slept.
    Houndlights can be slept.
    Dullahans, again, cannot be slept.
    Gnats on Demon Wall can be slept. I know, crazy: It stops the paralysis spam.

    Floor three:
    Everything except Dullahans can be slept, even the Vodoriga spawns on last boss. That's Soul Collectors, Smolenkos, Houndlights, and even the Succubi.

    My typical tactic is to go after those adds that present the worse problem for the most people, which means when Houndlights are single target casters, but Smolenkos are conal attackers, Smolenkos have a higher priority. But if the tank doesn't understand this, then the group has issues because unless they are all casters more than one person is taking damage that will continue longer as the tank is dealing with Soul Collectors (usual first target), then lights, then the ahrimans. *Sigh*

    Thankfully, with the fixing of WP, I've not done more than one AK since the patch came up and WP is now FAR more efficient to run than AK. I do not need to worry about bad tanking targets *as much*. When it comes to the Cog Grease versus Pugil packs, there seems a coin flip which is worse, but if there's a Tonberry in the mix most go for it regardless. The tank has even stopped aggro to pick up the flask of oil(!), or the Healer or any caster does.

    (Speed run, speed run, Always in a hurry.)

    Tanking making targets without familiarity IS A PROBLEM. This is TRAINED when doing the Guildhests, but people don't really do them. So there's issues with people learning how to tank correctly, sadly. They are enabled with damage classes thinking they have better ideas, thinking it's okay to just "go crazy" and then you get lots of damage everywhere the healer has to spam aoe heals to deal with. *shakes head*
  20. Gonzothegreat198

    Gonzothegreat198 Member

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    From what i've been hearing from my FC, WP is a 10-15 min run now.

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