Rokien Thread: Is there depth in this game yet?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rokien, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Rokien

    Rokien Adventurer

    61
    22
    16
    I'm just wondering if there is depth yet in this game except for added content. More content /= depth. I'm talking about depth in the individual systems within the game. Like combat, crafting, player to player interactions.
     

  2. Carbonyl

    Carbonyl Crystal Brave

    637
    407
    29
    There always has been.
     

    GeekMatt and Caimie Tsukino like this.
  3. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    2,776
    3,258
    64
    At least, I can guarantee you the depth of crafting!
    It has always been real deep since ARR... like REALL REALLL DEEP!
     

  4. Rokien

    Rokien Adventurer

    61
    22
    16
    In what though? What has depth?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2018 ---
    Is it? I thought it was pretty straight forward.
     

  5. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    2,776
    3,258
    64
    Before we go on with this discussion, perhaps you could tell us a few games which you personally think has good depth first, so that we know what kind of benchmark you're looking for?
     

    Fybrile likes this.
  6. Rokien

    Rokien Adventurer

    61
    22
    16
    Demon souls had depth, FFXI had depth, even ffxiv 1.x had more depth.

    Fighting games have creative depth with chaining combos.

    Depth to me is something that isn't straight forward, x=y.

    FFXIV ARR is like an ocean that's a foot deep to me.
     

  7. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    3,442
    3,292
    58
    My understanding is that FFXI and XIV 1.0 were more grind than anything. There are certain areas of the game that have a lot of grind if that's what you're looking for.

    Really though I'm not sure what youre looking for when you say "depth"--things in ffxiv were overly convoluted so they actually simplified a lot of things in the last xpac, removing redundant buttons for battle classes, removing the need for sub classes, etc.

    The crafting system is addicting and fun with various methods (I always favoured the convenient methods over the 100% ones at endgame) but crafting's only truly challenging when trying to craft at or above your level/gear.

    If that doesn't answer your question, I'd have to ask how far into the game you got on craft/battle classes to know where you're coming from
     

    racooperii likes this.
  8. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    2,776
    3,258
    64
    Try craft one of these items with a level 50 crafter, and tell me how straight forward it is... I have heard of people seeking help with crafting these even with a level 61 crafter. Sure, if you do it with a level 70, maybe it'll be "straight forward". But these were ARR endgame items, so the challenge was to do it at level 50.
    Special 3 Star 80 Durability Items
    (a.k.a. 3.9 Star Monstrosity Items, for acquisition of Master Recipe Books II of 4 star recipes)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    e.g. Rich Tomato Relish, Intricate Silver Brocade, Concentrated Spirits of Salt, Balanced Darksteel Hook, Reinforced Darksteel wire etc.
    (Durability: 80, Difficulty: 801, Quality: 8965)
    ... My point is, it's not that simple unless you have a good understanding of almost every tool you have on hand, able to make combos with them, and also utilize procs. It really picks your brain, and requires you to put in some thoughts.

    Now in Stormblood, try craft a "Snailfish Oil" from pure NQ mats, and tell me how "straight forward" it is. Of course, if I show you how the rotation goes, it's easy. You can just copy and follow. But if I don't give you the "answer" (sure, you can google it too), it may take you a bit of time to it figure out yourself. Even the execution of the rotation itself may take about 15 min. So I don't think it's THAT "straight forward". You will need a level 70 crafting class equipped with the Soul Stone to be able to craft this though.

    I don't know how much time you have spent in crafting in this game. It takes at least multiple level 50 crafting classes (for several cross class skills) to start getting the sense of what the "real" crafting game is like. I would suggest you try it out yourself.
     

    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  9. Rokien

    Rokien Adventurer

    61
    22
    16
    See I didn't know that. That's awesome, now is there depth like that else where in the game?
    Great reply btw.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2018 ---
    FFXI, there was depth in the battle system and crafting system. There was also depth in the content and player interactions. I actually needed others to complete MOST content in the game. Even leveling.

    Its sad that they got rid of sub jobs, sub jobs add complexity and make it to where you don't have a cookie cutter class and one is able to make their own class. In ffxi the norm was THF/NIN. I was always a THF/war or something else. I would out DD even some warriors with my different build. The catch was is that I had to create my own parties because nobody would want a thf/war or blm. Yet every parties I created for any activity was a huge success and opened peoples minds on different ways of actually playing the game. I think it's nice to have options, options add depth to the game, if you take options out, it hinders it I believe, because everyone is the same.

    I believe simplicity isn't the way to go. It's okay to have simple yet complex however. Take a fighting game. It's pretty straight forward in its controls. "x" jumps "box" kicks, "triangle" punches. That's pretty simple, yet you can combined them in complex ways to create different moves. That's simple yet complex.
     

  10. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    2,776
    3,258
    64
    There is certainly depth in other parts of the game. As an All-70, and as a WAR/PLD/WHM main, I can tell you a bit about how the battle system is like at the moment.

    They have removed cross class skills, and further streamlined the classes to roles now. So healers can't do insane damage like they used to. DPS classes can no longer tank (although, my WAR can still ditch out some very impressive DPS numbers). I agree with you that it is rather saddening to remove all the sub job requirements and cross class skills. In the past, we could do funky things, which were fun, like I could somewhat tank with my MNK or DRG if I equip an enmity skill like Skull Sunder and a defensive skill like Foresight from WAR. And classes like BLM could use Physick to heal itself or party member (although the numbers are really pathetic, so it was more like a last effort to survive). Some skills that used to be unique to certain classes have become "role skills" now, which all classes for that role (e.g. healer role) have access to. E.g. Divine Seals for WHM is gone. Largesse replaces it, and became available for AST and SCH to use as well. You could say each class now loses a bit of uniqueness, but note that in Heavensward the classes already had too many unique skills, and were overwhelming the hotbars with too many unique buttons. So reducing the uniqueness and made certain skills become role skills helped to reduce the hotbar complexity and helped to even out all healer classes.

    Nevertheless, there is still depth in each class's rotations (as long as you're not a level 25 who has only a few buttons), and each class still has much uniqueness. For most classes, it is now relatively easy to pick up and do fine in dungeons and raids (using 60-70% of the buttons). But it is very difficult to truly master a class (using >95% of the buttons) and perform superbly in end-game trials. And although we can no longer do funky things like healing with a DPS, we do have the introduction of the RDM class lately in Stormblood, which provides some mix-role play styles (Note that the funky play in the past were ineffective to begin with... A DPS who tried to heal only messes up its DPS numbers without contributing much to healing anyway). End-game trials in this game has always been 8-men trials, so it requires expert players to perform together as a team to win. A lot of hardcore players utilize voice chat to better communicate with one another to beat these difficult contents. So a lot of collaborative effort is required.

    Well said. Single skills are monotonous. Combos are slightly better, but still boring. But if you need to improvise to change your combos, that's starting to be fun. I think classes like SMN, NIN, BRD, MNK, DRK and WAR all have this factor. Whereas healer classes emphasize a lot more on improvising rather than combos.

    As for crafting, the whole crafting game is about mix and matching your skills and combos, so I think it fits my description of "fun" above perfectly.

    Here's an outdated picture of how ARR endgame crafting used to be:
    http://i.imgur.com/6H5YIWd.png

    You may take a quick look at Chapter 10 to 12b of my ARR crafting guide.
    http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/ff14-advanced-crafting-guide-by-caimie-tsukino.39/

    You may also check out my newest Stormblood crafting guide here, and you'll see how deep the rabbit hole goes:
    http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/ff14-advanced-crafting-guide-part-4-stormblood-by-caimie-tsukino.194/

    Like GeekMatt said, the challenge of crafting mostly comes from crafting something that is above your own level. Endgame crafting presents us with "Master Recipe Books" containing "Starred Recipes". Starred recipes are basically items that are above our endgame levels (3 star items in ARR would be equal to level 53 recipes for a level 50, special 2 star items in Stormblood would be similar to level 73 recipes for a level 70). They're usually endgame raid gear that has to be made high quality. So that's why they're particularly challenging, but still very attractive to be made due to their usefulness.
     

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  11. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    3,442
    3,292
    58
    For raid-tier content, things are pretty straightforward with regards to party makeup and each player's role, there's definitely a lack of depth in that sense, though the subclasses didn't help there because 99% of the time you were expected to use specific crossclass skills for your job.

    However, new specialized crossrole skills were added that offer more ability to try new things. I can say with confidence that there's more diversity among players in optional-skills taken than there use to be. These are mostly support skills for assisting (or trolling) other players.

    In the more casual content like dungeons, your party doesn't need to fit some cookie cutter unless you're PUGing using DF. From 15-30 I've healed all the content on my ACN, from 50 - 60 I ran all dungeons on my my AST with 2 RDMs and a SAM due to the queue being a mess for DPS, and from 50-70 (including level 70 dungeons) I've had to heal some of the most challenging (casual) content with my RDM or PLD whenever a healer died/afk'd/got locked out.

    I suspect for what you're looking for battle-wise, the game lacks the depth you're after.
     

    racooperii likes this.
  12. Rokien

    Rokien Adventurer

    61
    22
    16
    an impressive guide you made! I had fun looking at it. Sadly I'm not a crafter but if I get back into this game, I will probably become one now!
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 22, 2018 ---
    Thanks for the great response!!! I enjoyed playing as WHM because it wasn't cut instone on what you had to do. It was more on your toes.
     

  13. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    2,776
    3,258
    64
    Thanks! :)
    You should totally try crafting! Not only is it heaps of fun (when you have multiple level 50s), it is also a good source for cash, and provides the power to instantly gear up or glamour up your different classes without the hassle of relying on random loot drops. Not to mention, it also allows you to build your own home:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    However, it is a long shot and a lot of time investment to reach that point. Just be aware of this.

    Healing is great! It requires some good reflexes and improvising. But don't forget pre-emptive healing or barrier set-up is a great part of the game too. So knowing what's upcoming can help a lot.
     

    Jinzuku likes this.
  14. Choochoobo

    Choochoobo Crystal Brave

    Top Poster Of Month

    Server:
    Leviathan
    175
    133
    25
    Have you tried any of the other healers? I'd argue that WHM is the more boring out of the three (Astrologian, Scholar, White Mage). My guess is that SCH would be the most in depth one, but I'm not a healer main so I can't say too much.
     

Share This Page