Red Mage: You was supposed to be the chosen one!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by delta5ff, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. delta5ff

    delta5ff Scion

    824
    700
    38
    Ever since I first played Final Fantasy I (PSP/GBA version's) Red Mage has been my favourite FF job, to the point it's my avatar on most websites.

    After my main been White Mage since the launch of 2.0 I was looking forward to playing a dps job at max level. I have no intention of giving up my heals, but been able to fill more rolls for my fc is something I've wanted to do for a while. After using palace of the dead and roulette's to level to 60 I've come to the disappointing conclusion that it's rather boring.

    I so wanted to love this job but unfortunately I don't see myself levelling it any further and will probably be taking Samurai to 70 with my WHM. :baby:
     

    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  2. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    3,443
    3,292
    58
    Really? I wasn't too interested in RDM because I'm not normally caster fan and it seemed rotationally too simple for my liking, but having levelled it to 63 i found it felt very smooth, very powerful and VERY versatile.

    I'm consistently top aggro and can feel the adds melt away, and as a 3.x AST main, having acccess to a solid heal, a raise, manashift and even Erase makes me feel more valuable to a party—one of the main reasons I don't like playing DPS is because I feel powerless when things aren't going smoothly, but as a RDM and as an experienced healer, I can get us back on track.

    But most importantly, above all else, is our dive, backstep, Dualcast and Surcast which all allow me to be exactly where I want to be when I need to be there around mechanics. Vault is a phenomenal example where I negated every knockback on the second boss and basically position myself however I wanted, ignoring mechanics and dodging on dualcast. On the last boss I could jump in close to the boss to position myself between the wall of horsemen, and backstep to break tethers instantly as they're applied. The job itself just feels slick as s**t when dealing with mechanics and I really appreciate all the little things you can do to squeeze a little more DPS, like healing yourself between phases to get a Dualcast ready so you can balance your mana more quickly once the fight starts.
     

    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    JMATAWWCL likes this.
  3. delta5ff

    delta5ff Scion

    824
    700
    38
    I thought I'd love it, and my first experience was extremely positive. I really enjoyed my time playing up to level 54 (again that was using POTD and roulette's) and thought samurai was the underwhelming job. But the more I played the more bored I got going through my rotation with a massive sense of tedium falling over me.

    I can see the appeal of the healer utilities it gets and as a career WHM having access to a cure and raise makes me feel at home. I've even had to heal through a few mechanics which brought me a familiar sense of satisfaction.

    But the majority of the time due to duel cast it feels like I'm just waiting. Because of the way duel cast works it feels like I'm waiting two gcd's between actions which is where the tedium comes in.

    I may finish it off to 70 at some point because I like the utility it brings but without it been a little more fun I think I'll struggle to find the motivation to level it
     

  4. Jojoba

    Jojoba Adventurer

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    80
    81
    19
    As a level 70 RDM, I've gotta say that it's probably the most fun job I've played in FFXIV thus far. I played a BRD from the launch of 2.0 until the day Stormblood dropped, and I'm glad I made the switch (of course, I'll go back to BRD sometime, but some of the changes kinda made it feel a bit too foreign for me).

    For primarily being a caster job, the sheer mobility of RDM is insane. Corps-a-corps and Displacement don't even need to be used as an engage/disengage, and can be used to cheat mechanics and reposition to places other classes would struggle to get to in certain situations. Utilizing the last 0.x seconds of a cast to maneuver (while having the cast still successfully go off) and then having free movement after Dualcast is up means you can be anywhere you need to be without the perceived "get in, get out" positioning skills.

    Getting into the flow and utilizing Dualcast to alternate and manipulate your spells to your needs is a mini-game in of itself. While it isn't high-risk, it can definitely stall your damage output and procs as well as make regaining momentum a challenge. This becomes much more apparent in the last few levels, where your white/black mana gauge levels are incredibly important to your success and momentum. Lose that momentum, and now you're playing catch-up with not only the other DPS members of your party, but with yourself. And I think that's brilliant. I love having to worry about my mana levels in an intense trial or raid. It's basically logic vs reaction. Do I want to use Verthunder and bring my black mana higher than it should be to try and get a Verfire proc? Or should I go back to Jolt/Impact and potentially reset my spellcasting rhythm? Do I try and get a big burst of damage out by using Riposte, Zwerchauu and Redoublement to proc Verholy and Verflare even though my mana levels will be equaled out, thus bringing the Verstone/Verfire proc percentage down to 20% from 100%? Or do I use Moulinet to bring my mana levels down to try and tip the scale a bit more and get better benefits, but sacrifice potentially precious time? Do I use Corps-a-corps and Displacement to get off quick damage or save them for a potential mechanic that may happen too soon for the cooldowns to refresh? Can I afford to use my Vercure and Verraise when I have Dualcast up to heal/res a party member if my rotation and rhythm will suffer in a crucial moment? These are just a few of the possible situations that arise when in the heat of the moment of playing RDM.

    And I haven't even gotten into the extra skills like Swiftcast, Manafication, and Acceleration that allow you to manipulate your mana levels and spellcasting rhythm further to (hopefully) benefit you. RDM is all about split-second decision making where most people would pop a cooldown or two and see no real penalties.

    Is RDM easy to pick up? Of course. Is it easy to master? In my opinion, it isn't. One wrong spell can send you into catch-up mode, and getting to a point where you don't make those mistakes is harder than most think. Is it rewarding? Extremely. Most importantly, is it fun? You're damn right it is.
     

    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  5. Zheri

    Zheri Crystal Brave

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    266
    164
    26
    I gotta agree with @delta5ff here. I was super hyped for RDM after seeing the gameplay. It was my first 70 and I made it as far as O1S with it as my main job before asking my static if they were OK with me changing to BLM. While it does have a lot of advantages, namely mobility, a forgiving rotation, Dualcast/Verraise, strong personal damage and Embolden, it's ultimately unsatisfying to play, and the AoE Scatter spam is so boring that I don't even want to run dungeons on it anymore. Personally, I feel like I have very little room for improvement because there's really nothing I need to plan ahead for and every problem has a simple answer. To use the examples from the poster above me:

    "Do I want to use Verthunder and bring my black mana higher than it should be to try and get a Verfire proc? Or should I go back to Jolt/Impact and potentially reset my spellcasting rhythm?"
    You use Verthunder/Veraero every time you have Dualcast; Jolt, Impact, Verfire, or Verstone is a DPS loss no matter what. If you're doing the rotation correctly you won't be in a situation where one wrong spell will imbalance your mana by more than 30.

    "Do I try and get a big burst of damage out by using Riposte, Zwerchauu and Redoublement to proc Verholy and Verflare even though my mana levels will be equaled out, thus bringing the Verstone/Verfire proc percentage down to 20% from 100%? Or do I use Moulinet to bring my mana levels down to try and tip the scale a bit more and get better benefits, but sacrifice potentially precious time?"
    Never use Moulinet outside of AoE. You use Swiftcast > Verthunder/Veraero (I use Thunder/Holy because their animations are prettier, but it 100% does not matter which one.) to imbalance your mana before going into the melee combo. If you need to stay at range to avoid an AoE, you can push your mana into the 90+ range without any repercussions then dash in. Even if you absolutely have to hit 100/100 to keep hitting the boss, losing the guaranteed proc is not a huge deal.

    "Do I use Corps-a-corps and Displacement to get off quick damage or save them for a potential mechanic that may happen too soon for the cooldowns to refresh?"
    Corps-a-corps and Displacement pretty much always come off cooldown at the same time as your melee combo is ready. The only time you use them as extra damage is in in your opener when you'll be using Manafication to reset them. Even if you need to save them to handle mechanics it's not a huge sacrifice. As long as you aren't standing in Gridania trying to hit a boss in Doma, Dualcast offers ample time to casually stroll up the the boss before poking him with your enchanted stick.

    "Can I afford to use my Vercure and Verraise when I have Dualcast up to heal/res a party member if my rotation and rhythm will suffer in a crucial moment?"
    You don't use Vercure with Dualcast up unless a party member is facing imminent death; you never hardcast Verraise. Dualcasting Vercure costs you 300 potency and 11 mana while hardcasting it only costs 240 or 270 potency and 6 or 8 mana. That said, you should never really be casting it at all outside of gaining a Dualcast proc when there's nothing to hit or both healers are dead and you're trying to save someone while they get res'ed and you're spammming it so there is no decision point anyway.

    The extra skills are.fairly simple as well. Fleche and Contre Sixte are just used on cooldown. If you get poor timing on Acceleration with your melee combo, you delay it until after Riposte which lets you finish it and cast your Verthunder/Veraero just before the timer runs out. In a coordinated static, you line Embolden up with other party buffs like Trick Attack or Battle Voice, or for personal DPS you use it after Zwerchhau so that Redoublement and Verholy/Verflare both benefit from the full 5 stacks. Manafication is the only one there's any kind of nuance to. Sometimes RNGesus doesn't feel like cooperating and you need to hit it 1 GCD before 40+/40+ then cast your last spell in order to be imbalanced for the melee combo.

    Overall, RDM is fun, but the high skill floor and low skill ceiling of the class makes it feel like I don't have much if any room to improve pull-to-pull and week-to-week. And even then, the difference between optimal and just good play is so minimal that it just doesn't feel rewarding to me. That is why I find the class unsatisfying when compared to BLM's impactful decision making and reward for learning the fight and getting it correct. (Giant nuclear fireballs of death kinda help too.)
     

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    Caimie Tsukino likes this.
  6. Jojoba

    Jojoba Adventurer

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    80
    81
    19
    The questions I was putting out there weren't necessarily things that are correct or things that even I do. They're merely things I see happen a lot of the time among RDMs who aren't sure what to do in a given situation, just summed up into a list.

    I worded the first question incorrectly after looking back at it, so that's on me. Basically what you said. Always Dualcast Veraero or Verthunder because it'd be pointless to not do so.

    I'm guilty of using Moulinet to bring down mana levels in a pickle. Very, very rarely, but I've done it. I can't say I've had any negative repercussions from doing it, but I prefer to just keep an eye on my mana levels through using the bread-and-butter combo and not let them get maxed out or be in perfect equal balance, so any situation to break the equality is most likely avoided.

    Corps-a-corps and Displacement don't really throw much off when it comes to avoiding mechanics and not having them up (because walking away is a thing), but they're nice in an "oh s**t" last second reaction to something you may have simply not noticed. I use them on cooldown 99% of the time, and the times I don't, it's mostly because it'd be a bad idea due to an AoE or some other mechanic that would be stupid to risk shooting in towards. Or the one time I may have totally not accidentally used Displacement off the edge of Lakshmi EX. Nope. Totally didn't do that at all. :shifty:

    Yesterday I was in a Sephirot EX run with a few new people and another RDM in the party, and they were trying to take it on themselves to be the sole person to raise the entire fight on Dualcast procs, which was a terrible idea. Sure if both healers are down, definitely throw something out there to get one of them back up and pop a Mana Shift on them to make sure they're able to carry on if the fight isn't too far lost. But a lot of the time it messes up a healer who has used Swiftcast with the intention of raising the party member that the RDM has Dualcast raised.

    I'm not saying I'm a perfect RDM or anything (obviously) and once you figure out the nuances, the class doesn't offer a lot of skill growth, but I think it's definitely fun and the payoff is great when everything lines up correctly. I do wish I had more ranged AoE options than spamming Scatter, though. That's definitely quite boring and I often end up casting other things because I don't enjoy that repetition.

    I typed up that post when I was laying in bed half-asleep after a very long and tiring farming session, so I know I probably got things wrong, haha.
     

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    Caimie Tsukino likes this.
  7. Ish

    Ish Scion

    Server:
    Leviathan
    952
    336
    31
    Blm main here for a little over 3 years and i am actually liking the simplicity of Red Mage and not being constantly punished by mechanics and needing to pre-plan like that of blm. I have switched to red and love all the utility it has + raising players to save a group from wiping.
    I see many Red Mages start mellee combo at very beginning, this is like at 10 - 20 mana, big dps loss really as is using manification bellow 40
    I only use manification at around 50 or close to as possible.

    My opener is Acceleration> hard Cast Veraero or thunder (this is for pre-pulls, so will land once tank grabs the boss) Fleche> Contre Sixte and so on.
    Oh and Lucid Dreaming before** as you will for sure get aggro, lol
    No pre-pulls i just Jolt 2 after acceleration
    Red Mage is really fun to me.
     

  8. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    3,443
    3,292
    58
    I'm pretty sure Lucid Dreaming reduces your aggro by half, and doesn't effect new threat generation. Diversion will work pre-pull
     

  9. Ish

    Ish Scion

    Server:
    Leviathan
    952
    336
    31
    True but for opener it works perfectly fine so far. I have 5 job skills already so no room for diversion :(, Lucid is a must have on Red Mage
     

  10. Zheri

    Zheri Crystal Brave

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    266
    164
    26
    I've always found Diversion to be mandatory on RDM just because the the incredible initial burst. A proper opener will land 1320 potency (Veraero + Verthunder + Fleche + Contre Sixte) within the first GCD of an encounter. Even with it up I've pulled off of tanks if I get a couple (un)lucky direct hits and/or crits.

    Out of curiosity, what role abilities do you take instead and what is your opener that you don't need Diversion?

    For reference, I always use Lucid, Diversion, Mana Shift, and Swiftcast with the 5th spot rotating between Addle and Apoc depending on the fight, and my opener in a party with NIN and/or SAM in the group is
    -7s: Acceleration
    -6s: Diversion
    -5s: Veraero
    0s: Verthunder (Fleche + Contre Sixte)
    2.5s: Verstone (Corps-a-corps + Embolden)
    5s: Verthunder (Displacement)
    7.5s: Normal rotation until 40+/40+
    Manafication > melee combo weaving oGCDs if they come off CD
    Normal rotation
     

    Caimie Tsukino and GeekMatt like this.
  11. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    3,443
    3,292
    58
    As a tank, I throttle my DPS for RDMs who can hit hard but don't bother to manage their aggro. It's not a common problem but sometimes they'll get it for a split second on the pull due to Dualcast + oGCDs in my first hit.

    I don't complain, if I have to do it then I have to do it, but it's not anyone's best interest.
     

  12. Ish

    Ish Scion

    Server:
    Leviathan
    952
    336
    31
    I have drain instead of diversion, this was mostly to experiment with and the amount of bad healers i have ran into.
    I posted a shorter version of my opener up above, and you guys are correct i will most likely swap out drain for diversion.
    After some Susano EX Runs my opener well... caused my almost instant death, haha
    Dependant on a fight i will hold off magnification, it depends on fight duration really.
    I see so many Red Mages start the mellee combo at around 20 mana, so very bad..
     

  13. blackiyto

    blackiyto New Member

    6
    0
    2
    I thought I'd love it, and my first experience was extremely positive.
     

  14. delta5ff

    delta5ff Scion

    824
    700
    38
    Quick update.

    I seem to have come full circle and I'm now back to enjoying Red Mage more.

    I made to to around level 66, levelling my main through dungeons and using Sam to do all the quests. But I got burnt out with the constant stream of never-ending side quests eventually leaving the game.

    Having come back within the last two months I used just the MSQ and dungeons to get to 70 (I'm probably go8ng to do that for Shadowbringers as well). And enjoyed Sam a lot less than previously. I took it into Ifrit HM solo and realised it was the last k of access to heals that was putting me off.

    I still like Samurai but I think that as of now Red Mage will be my goto DPS when I get it leveled
     

Share This Page