Dragoon [P4/Launch] Blood for Blood, a Dragoon's Compendium (8/1 update!)

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Riven, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Tigris

    Tigris Adventurer

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    I think instead of haymaker Fracture is a must-have skill. Potency of 100 and 30 sec dot with potency of 20 is a total potency of 300 damage, which is quite a lot!

    Also Phlebotomize with 170 + 20 on a 18 second buff is now most likely worth to use. (170+120=290).

    Also I think some of the abilities are "wrong" since they used allways the levle 50 abilities. So mantra will most likely only be 10% increase of healing (because the passive buffs it to 20%).
    Also Invigorate was before 450 with the passive and now is 500. So it is not an increase of 300-500 but 450-500.

    Also second wind seams to be changed, since the basic ability says something about healing potency with attack power (which is correct in your guide) but there I am not sure if the passive improve is allready in or not (since the passive improve still says something about increase to 25%).

    I will also need to update the MNK guide to much changes^^
     

  2. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Don´t forget that only physical attacks will be parried. The shield negates also some magic damage though.

    Fracture is such a waste of skill/slot. Why should you use this when you have Phlebotomize and Chaos Thrust...

    You only calculate damage but don´t think about what those dot skills could influence in a negative way. While you use Fracture you lose already instantly min 50 or more potency damage for delaying the way more powerful skills and the dot never will compensate it with it´s so low dot rate. Phlebotomize and Chaos Thrust are fine but all others - Fracture/Poison Arrow etc... are just decreasing your dps and a waste of a skill for Lancer/Dragoon.


    Must haves are:

    Internal Release
    Second Wind
    Mercy Stroke
    Bloodbath
    Foresight

    If they´ll be available for Dragoon in the end... actually informations are confusing somehow and different sources give different informations.
     

  3. Alex Santin

    Alex Santin Adventurer

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    Must Have skills:
    Internal Release - +30% Crit increase for 15 seconds. Enough said.
    Mercy Stroke - 200 Damage execution skill can be usefull here and there.

    Skills to swap depending on the fight:
    Bloodbath - Make it easy on our healers and good for Soloing.
    Foresight - If you plan to be taking hits at some point during a fight use it. Great skill for solo play as well.
    Mantra - Enemy has an unavoidable AOE attack this would assist with the healing
    Second Wind - Same as Foresight.
    Featherfoot - Yet again same as Foresight.
    Haymaker - Good Solo skill. I initially thought to use this as standard but what are the chances that I will be taking many hits to take advantage of this skill.

    Useless Skills
    Skullsunder - Why? This is a tank skill completely useless for DRG
    Fracture - We have our own DOT skill. Phlebotomize initial attack is strong but DOT is 10 instead of 20

    So essentially to perform your role as a DD/DPS to its full potential you would need Internal Release and Mercy Stroke. The rest are interchangeable and should not affect your performance. Just be smart on what skill you choose for a fight as one might be more beneficial than the other.

    I do not see the point of Skullsunder or Fracture if anyone can make a case for them I am going to be amazed.
     

  4. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Haymaker? We have Feint... a way better skill. Didn´t know Lancer/Dragoon has soooouuu much evasion that it could be useful lol. Featherfoot doesn´t make it better, 15% of not much evasion is... not much. Even if it´s a direct calculation(+15% = 15% of hits miss) it wouldn´t help much. I doubt that anyway.

    They´re both only effective for Archer and Pugilist... i would just primary keep Bloodbath and Foresight instead of them.

    Mantra only increases the cure skills, not the leech skills from Lancer/Dragoon. As Dragoon you can´t use cure anymore. Another useless skill, except you want to be a supporter for the tank or you´re tanking - but you people claim sooooo much Dragoon never will tank lol. AoE > Leg Sweep wut.

    Btw Internal Release gives 20% Critrate and Mercy Stroke has a potency of 250, except there are some more new buffs/nerfs.
     

  5. Alex Santin

    Alex Santin Adventurer

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    From the Description it does not say the user of Mantra needs to cure. Let me quote it "Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self and nearby party members. Duration: 15s". This is a great skill for a fight were there is unavoidable AOEs.

    Haymaker
    Delivers an attack with a potency of 170.
    Can only be used immediately after evading an attack.
    Additional Effect: Slow +20%
    Duration: 12s

    Feint
    Delivers an attack with a potency of 120.
    Additional Effect: Slow +20%
    Duration: 40s

    Haymaker is just a counter skill. I would have to check if the slow effect applied by Feint is overwritten when using haymaker. We could argue if it is practical to use Haymaker when it is available but without actual numbers and test is a moot point.

    Foresight is better than Featherfoot, but 20% is negligible as well since DRG do not have the best Defense either.

    Add yes DRG will NEVER and I mean NEVER tank in a raid. Unless both your tanks die and at that point I would look in to getting.

    1. Better tanks
    2. Better healers

    At the end of the day I was just trying to make it easier for other players when choosing their 5 skills. Personally I will be using:

    8-24 Man Raids
    Internal Release
    Mercy Stroke
    Bloodbath
    Second Wind
    Mantra

    Less healing that needs to be done the better. That is why I will use Second Wind and Mantra.

    4 Man content
    Internal Release
    Mercy Stroke
    Bloodbath
    Foresight
    Second Wind

    Solo:
    Internal Release
    Mercy Stroke
    Bloodbath
    Foresight
    Second Wind
     

  6. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Where do you get your descriptions from? Because your Mantra description differs again from mine. From my source it´s 5% more heal on one target.

    And damn, Dragoon´s def isn´t the best but still kinda high. And it´s not about def, a tank with highest def can´t do s**t against magic damage if it would be just about def. Dragoon can use an enmity skill, can jump(similar to evade), can break actions through his stun and slow bosses or monsters. He can leech his HP up and negate some DMG with his own buffs... actually Dragoon is able to tank and in some case I even had to in P3 when our tank wasn´t able to get aggro from the adds at diverse bosses(Brayflox f.e.).
     

  7. Alex Santin

    Alex Santin Adventurer

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    xivdb.com trusted source of all the FFXIV data mined stuff.

    The sad thing is that I will have to level my MNK from 15 to 42.... I did not like MNK at all might as well level it to 50 i guess.
     

  8. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Seems like they changed more skills than mentioned here then. Though on Dragoon we won´t have f.e. 20% more heal on Mantra since we don´t get the enhancements Pugilist get. Same goes for every other cross skill. We´ll just get the unbuffed versions and I doubt all the descriptions are accurate on this site, saw already some issues but mostly it seems to be very near to how it will be. Seeing mainly good changes there, Internal Release 30% Critrate and still having the low cooldown, wut.

    Well, one week to wait - I´ll rush to lv30 and Dragoon quest once OBT started, but I doubt I´ll reach 50 before it ends, not that much time this week.
     

  9. Riven

    Riven Adventurer

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    Where are you getting your skill descriptions from? Xivdb is the only database I know of, and they're about as accurate as you can get right now.
     

  10. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Compare the skills and their upgrades on each class. You´ll know what I mean. Unbuffed cross skills aren´t shown.

    My source yet was ffxivinfo.com and until now those infos was accurate, except the cross skill class-req.

    So I see many changes incoming, more than you mentioned.
     

  11. Riven

    Riven Adventurer

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    Like what?
     

  12. Tigris

    Tigris Adventurer

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    The "we have our own dot" argument is somehow strange. I Mean having one dot more doesn't harm, when it increases the DPS.
    Or is there a limit on the number of dots/debuffs you can have on the target?

    The new Fracture dot has in total 300 potency, which will be worth a place in the rotation!

    Also as i mentioned on xivdb all the skilles are the upgraded versions (with passive from the class) so the Dragoon will still get only 20% krit and not 30% (and also other things I have mentioned).

    But overall this patch was quite a big damagebuff for the Lancer!
     

  13. Riven

    Riven Adventurer

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    You can't just look at the potency of the dot and use that to determine if its worthwhile. you have to include other factors like the TP cost, boss mechanics, etc.


    Everything I'm looking at so far shows only the CT dot to be worthwhile.
     

  14. Alex Santin

    Alex Santin Adventurer

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    That is a pretty vague statement. Of course there will be changes but I do not see it changing before the release. Unless the data mined information was completely wrong or from a past revision of the skills which I doubt.

    We do not get less versions of the skills that we borrow from other classes. We just don't get the Passive Traits these classes have that enhance these skills. This I did test with my 50 BRD and DRG.

    "But cures are weaker when you cross class them" the class that isn't CNJ or WHM do not have the amount of MND or the Passive bonuses they CNJ/WHM have.

    Yes we get the 20% enhancement the Passive Trait will probably change to 30% once the information is discovered. Either way this a great skill.

    Picture this we have 4 melee classes (including tanks) if the main tank happens to be a WAR they can equip Mantra, if you have a MNK they will have Mantra and a DRG they will also have Mantra. You could essentially have Mantra at any time during the fight allowing the WHM to use their Medica or Medica II to heal for more. This will also keep the WHM emnity down since they will not have to spam as many heals and it will not dwindle their MP pool as quick.
     

  15. Tigris

    Tigris Adventurer

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    The TP Cost ist 60 which is the same as other attacks (even a little bit lower then some).

    And what bossmechanics do you mean?

    The dot costs 60TP and only one global Cooldown and deals damage equal to 300 Potency.

    Lancer/Dragoons ar DDs and should deal the most possible damage. And an Attack with potency of 300 (even though it is not affected by the 10% slash damage increase) is of course worth it, when your "standart" combo only deals 238 Potency ( with 10% more damage from slash damage) per global cooldown for a cost of 63 TP (instead of this 60 TP).

    I don't see a reason why onse should not use this attack. I mean applying it once every 30 seconds (directly after Chaos Trust) is not that hard.....
     

  16. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Difference is first dots don´t crit and second it´s no instant 300 potency and the dot rate(time between the dots) is fcking slow. So it doesn´t make up the dps loss in the first second for delaying the more powerful chains.

    Exception is Chaos Thrust, as it has actually a good potency and dot potency and is chained in a decent combo. Phlebotomize is only good until some point of evolvement where you gained better skills.
     

  17. Riven

    Riven Adventurer

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    This is a long post, tl;dr at the end.


    The full combo has 660 potency, if you want to include the piercing damage (note: not slashing) if you add it all up. It also has a total TP cost of 190.


    Here's the problem with your argument: You're saying that the DoT has a total potency of 300. Which means, over its entire duration it's dealing that potency. Whereas Full thrust, at the end of the combo alone, is 300 potency up front. There's no duration, no length of time included. It hits for 300 potency all at once That's not including the 200 potency (all at once) vorpal thrust, and the 100 potency true thrust.


    You say its only 1 GCD. If this was WoW, or any other MMO with a 1 second GCD, I would agree with you on that part. But FF14's GCD is 2.4 seconds. That's HUGE. Especially, especially, when there are so much more higher damage skills you can use.

    On top of everything it has a TP cost of 80. Not 60. That's nearly half the cost of a True > Vorpal > Full thrust combo, and that combo deals far greater damage.

    And last, but not least, the base duration is 10 seconds. Not 30. A CT-rotation DRG doesnt have the GCD to spare for a useless skill like that. Non-CT would have the GCD to spare, but I just proved that it simply isn't worth the cost. At all.



    I'm gonna normalize the two abilities via potency. So one combo is 600 Potency. Two DoT durations is 600 potency. So they're equal to start. Taking this into consideration, and doing the math:
    The damage from the combo is 3.47 potency per TP spent. This is 7.5 seconds (this is still correct)
    The DoT is 3.75 potency per TP spent, however, that's over 20 seconds.
    The struck-through info is wrong, check below.​

    The 30 TP difference will become negligible due to various TP regen sources, such as passive regen, Army's Paeon (the bard TP song), and proper usage of exhilarate/invigorate.


    I'm am including the 10% piercing damage increase from Disembowel, but I am not including the percent chance to crit. Fracture, or any other DoT, cannot crit.


    On top of allllllllll this I just listed I'm going to explain why I absolutey, 100%, despise DoTs with every fiber of my being:
    THEY TICK ON SERVER TIME. This is the biggest detriment to DoTs. There's absolute no guarantee you'll have the # of ticks that the skill says it does. Here's how DoT mechanics work in FFXIV: ARR:


    0 seconds. Fight starts
    1
    2
    3 - Any and all DoTs on the mob tick
    4
    5
    6 - DoT Tick


    etc. I've seen this firsthand. I hate this. It sucks. Now lets assume you cast fracture just after that first tick at 3 seconds:
    0
    1
    2
    3 - No DoTs. No damage dealt.
    4 - Fracture Cast. Initial potency of 100 dealt. No DoT damage.
    5
    6 - DoT Tick.
    7
    8
    9 - DoT Tick.
    10
    11
    12 - DoT Tick
    13
    14

    15 - DoT Tick
    16
    17
    18 - DoT Tick. Fracture expires.

    5 ticks. 5 ticks, at 20 potency. Screw that garbage. Just because you missed a server tick, you miss a full tick


    t;dr: Thrust combo can crit. DoTs can't. DoTs tick on server time. This is bad.
    Show me where you get your fracture ticks every one second information, because I haven't found it anywhere. At all.

    edit: I just discovered the 'Main/Sub' button on xivdb. The base duration of Fracture is 18 seconds. This actually makes this skill even worse. It takes 36 seconds to equate to 600 potency. Not 20. The actual potency is 220 over 18 seconds. The potency per TP comes out, if you don't miss a tick 2.74. If you do miss a tick, which is very possible, its 2.5.
     

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  18. Alex Santin

    Alex Santin Adventurer

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    To my knowledge I do not think there is a DoT that will tick every second. So Riven is correct. Fracture is trash.
     

  19. Riven

    Riven Adventurer

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    I'm 98% sure that all DoTs work off server time. Most DoT mechanics, like in WoW (for example) are based off the cast time of the DoT. That is, they tick every X seconds after it's been casted. FF14, on the other hand, tick every 3 seconds (or something close), regardless of when the DoT was cast.

    This could be wrong, might be wrong, but I haven't been shown evidence proving otherwise.
     

  20. Eein

    Eein New Member

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    dots work off server time, a 3 second tick that causes dot ticks to occur at the same time, (in 1s intervals over 3 seconds)

    99.99% of the time you will not get the last tick of your dot.

    On another note i'm not sure if its been mentioned:
    This is the potency and duration with the trait.

    the actual potency is 100, with a 20 potency dot for 18s, which is 5 ticks (when accounting for server time) an addition 100 potency, assuming you miss 0 seconds refreshing, and clip at no more or less than 1 seconds.
    You can't break combos, so the chances of this lining up rely solely on spell speed, latency, and how much you can stay on the boss.

    I've been simming the results, and phlebotomize is only a gain for the CT priority, and not for a non-CT priority. The reasoning for a CT priority is the extra global and additional (less) TP used on stronger skill chains without dot tracking gives you a nearly 9 dps boost for braindead raid performance. In a CT rotation, having more or less skillspeed (in its current form) can cause the value of phlebotomize to change.

    Even with Phlebotomize in a non-ct rotation, its only a 1.3%-ish dps gain, and while the CT build is already a nightmare with all the CD"s and dot tracking, it's probably not going to be viable in a real world case to attempt to track a dot for such a marginal gain while dealing with mechanics, ability placement, and dot tracking while dodging mechanics and using your cooldown instants in the correct order. But if you stand still and dont worry about anything the entire fight. Yup, its a 2 dps gain.

    If a dot doesn't provide something extra besides damage, theres a good chance its not worth using over flat damage skills.
    (ie. Windbite and Venomous Bite. resetting bloodletter or thunder proccing thundercloud.)
     

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