Dragoon Lancer(Dragoon) skills, rotations and tactics

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Novaultima, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. Itstort

    Itstort New Member

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    Hi, I am a Dragoon looking to improve my DPS, and was checking out some random rotations. I am curious how your rotation works for you. You say to skip the True Thrust combo as it deals less damage than the Impulse Drive combo. Here is some math to that:

    True Thrust (150 potency) > Vorpal Thrust (200 potency) > Full Thrust (300 potency)
    vs
    Impulse Drive (180 potency) > Disembowl (220 potency + pierce resist) > Chaos Thrust (160 potency + 20 potency dot)


    With the True Thrust combo you're getting straight raw damage that ends at 650 potency
    With the Impulse Drive combo you're getting straight raw damage that ends at 560 potency + you get 20 seconds of piercing 10% piercing resist and a weak 20 potency dot.

    If you just cycle Impulse Drive combo you're getting over all less damage, and overlapping your piercing debuff and weak dot.

    How is it that, by losing out on 90 over all potency you result in doing more damage, by physically dealing less damage?

    I don't mean to sound negative in any way, so I do apologize if it comes off like that, I am just truly curious on the math behind overlapping your debuff/dot.
     

  2. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    You don´t overlap Chaos Thrust dot, since you use it only once every 30 sec. That mean ID - Disemb - Chaos Thrust for once, then only ID - Disemb until dot effect ran out. Compared to Full Thrust Chain you do more or less the same damage at the end, but you have more initial damage/burst and enmity, what is more important - or are you happy when every class besides tank/heal has more enmity than you?

    Fact is after all those rotations I tried, in the end I used only ID - Disemb(plus Leg Sweep on CD)/repeat for the lol, but surprisingly had always WAY higher bars at those enmity bars in the grp window. It´s just harder to use, since you have to stay on the back of the enemy on every ID.
     

  3. Itstort

    Itstort New Member

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    I see what you're getting at. I'll give that a whirl. I was just confused as to why you said to skip the true thrust combo and only do the ID combo. I do see what you mean with the burst on the first two abilities though. Will give that a whirl ;D
     

  4. FFADD

    FFADD Adventurer

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    Many months in this added advice could not be more useful while the original guide was very thoughtful too! Blood for Blood is probably the reason most Bards at first suffer through then fall in love with Lancer in the first place. B4B should be used as often as possible, as should Raging Strikes, again, as long as (like Archers and Bards often do, ahem) hate isn't pulled away from an often struggling nublar tank.

    People forget we ALL had to learn at some point, and it's not like people are exactly easy on tanks OR healers in this game. Yes, ideally every party would have a GOOD Arcanist who knows how to control their pet in the early dungeons so this doesn't become an issue, but sadly that's not the case, so we all have to be aware when helping the lower level ppl learn how to play well that it's not about showing how strong we are or how much dps WE can do (all you "I want a DPS meter!!!" screamers out there) but what contributes best to the success of the entire party as a whole. ^^ Happy gaming.
     

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  5. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    Since this thread is still floating around, just wanted to post a message to let people know that the guide is not accurate. I assume it was when it was written, but certainly now, it's far from accurate. Any learner Dragoons should find a more recent guide.
     

  6. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Let me know if I shall update it, don´t know if there are other guides yet and if my is even of any sense now.

    Didn´t play since some time.


    PS: Did they change some skills? Full Thrust f.e. has 330 Basic Attack now...
     

  7. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Updated. More compact now...

    New section with endgame experiences. Also refreshed some older stuff but skills descriptions I have to recheck again.
     

  8. Artorias

    Artorias Crystal Brave

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    All I want to know is; Is the part about being able to not use HT accurate, and just stick with the rear combo rotation?
     

  9. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    No, it isn't accurate, and you should not be only using the Impulse Drive combo. He said that the Impulse Drive (rear) combo is stronger than the thrust combo in raw potency, but it's easy to do the maths and prove that he's incorrect.

    The ID combo is a potency of 600 I think, but effectively 620 because Disembowel boosts Chaos Thrust's Potency by 10% (20). The thrust combo gives you a potency of 680. So already we can see that the thrust combo is stronger. What you should be doing is starting with Heavy Thrust to get your 10% buff up, then go into the rear combo (Impulse Drive) to get the DoT active, and then hit the thrust combo. With the boost from Disembowel, the thrust combo has a potency of 748 if my maths is correct (that's without the heavy thrust buff). I've just done those numbers on the fly so I don't know if they're 100% accurate, but you should try it yourself anyway to prove it to yourself :)

    If you just repeat the rear combo, you waste your Dis buff on a weaker combo, and you're overlapping the Chaos Thrust DoT, so it's obviously going to lower your DPS. Why would SE put the thrust combo in the game if it was useless?

    Basically, don't use this guide :p I like that Nova put a lot of effort into it, but unfortunately a lot of the information is wrong. You should get your Dragoon information from here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/79042-Dragoons-A-Rotation-Reborn

    EDIT: If you just want to get to the rotation and skip all the reasoning and proof that it's the strongest, go to the "This Isn't Even My Final Form" section.
     

    Last edited: May 14, 2014
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  10. Artorias

    Artorias Crystal Brave

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    Thanks, I'll check it out :)
     

  11. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    To be fair to Nova he did say these things were open to discussion so that's cool. Check out the guide I linked to above, Nova. There's some very useful info there :)

    It turns out I did do the maths wrong (corrected now), and the thrust combo is even stronger than I thought :p So you should DEFINITELY be using the thrust combo. It's huge.
     

    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  12. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Yes, obviously my rotation infos are outdated, when I did my last posts many skills had different base damage and durations. I didn´t play for long now, but playing again currently.

    Full Thust has 360 base damage now, that´s a huge improvement!

    Let me detail this for now:
    Name(base damage/percing resist debuff/heavy thrust buff)
    True Thrust(150/165/190) - Vorpal Thrust(200/220/253) - Full Thrust(360/396/455) = 710/781/898
    Impulse Drive(180/198/228) - Disembowel(220/242/278) - Chaos Thrust(250/275/293) = 650/715/799

    Mainly the True Thrust Combo is stronger now in final damage after Full Thrust, but if you miss Full Thrust or in between the Combo, you will do less damage than Impulse Drive -> Disembowel. Means, you should be sure to have enough Accuracy to miss rarely... else the Impulse Drive Combo will always be better since it still has more Initial damage/burst.

    Also, the more damage increasing buffs you get, the closer is the gap between those combos in final damage. With Blood for Blood and other external damage boosts the Impulse Drive Combo should be even slightly better again than the Thrust Combo, since it profits more from % increases and is more reliable. In addition crit also has a big role here... while on Thrust Combo you have to rely on crit on Full Thrust, at Impulse Drive Combo you can hold constant dps easier with crits on any skill among the combo.

    Short
    Impulse Drive Combo: More reliable, more initial damage and burst undependable on misses, more flexible
    Thrust Combo: Only more final damage, if you have a very high Accuracy and can stand longer at a target

    So therefore, Thrust Combo is good for targets which last longer and where you are able to stand longer, so as only with enough Accuracy. Impulse Drive Combo is always the starter combo, to increase damage and giving dot´s early and because of the higher initial damage; It´s also more flexible and reliable which means if you have to change targets or miss too often you still do great damage.


    PS: How is the formular of the % dmg increase for a single crit now? Is a critical hit 50% or 25% more damage currently?
     

    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
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  13. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    The combos are a lot less situational than that, man. In terms of when to use each combo, this is all you need to know:

    Against a boss or a very tough thing: Use the full Dragoon rotation. It includes both combos. The rotation cycles through them to pump out the maximum possible Dragoon DPS. Just use the rotation.

    Against mobs and weak stuff: Unless the party DPS is weirdly low (making mobs last longer), always just use your AoEs and the Thrust combo. Basic mobs don't survive long enough to make the DoT combo worthwhile, so you'll put out way more damage if you just use the AoEs and Thrust combo.

    And that's all there is to it :funnyguy:

    Accuracy definitely shouldn't factor into your choice of attacks. If you're missing any hits at all, it means your accuracy is too low. Increase your accuracy with food or gear, and come back to the fight.

    Oh, and I think a crit attack is +50%, but I could be wrong.
     

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  14. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    I have never, ever missed a Full Thrust before. And because we ALWAYS use Life Surge before Full Thrust, it's a guaranteed crit and will always do more burst damage then the Impulse Drive Combo. I guess if you are missing your Full Thrust, then you are probably a bit undergeared. Try not to use gear that are more than 6 levels below you.

    Whether to use the Thrust Combo or the Impulse Combo depends on how fast the target dies.

    The true powers of the Impuls Combo lies in Disembowel's piercing debuff, which affects yourself, Bards and other Dragoons in your party as well. But in order to reach there, you are forced to go through the whole combo. And since Chaos Thrust is a DoT, its powers depends on the target to live long enough.

    Ideally, you want all your buffs active during your Full Thrust (including the Disemb debuff, heavy thrust 15% damage bonus, Blood 4 Blood, and Life Surge). This will generate the most damage. But if the mob dies any time during Chaos' DoT effect, then you probably should have just used the Thrust Combo instead since Full Thrust gives much more instant burst damage.
     

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  15. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    Yes, this is usually the case if the mob can last long enough for chaos to finish.

    It is 50% bonus damage.

    Yea, it really comes down to how fast things die. If you used Impuls Combo and it just died, then you just make yourself look stupid setting up all that DoT and pierce debuff. But if you go through your Thrust Combo like three times and the stuff is still alive, then you make yourself look stupid as well doing all those suboptimal attacks that could have been buffed. XD

    If i am unsure of the situation, I usually start off with Heavy Thrust for the 15% damage bonus first, then Phleb it to start the DoT, then just go Thrust Combo directly (with life surge on FT). This way even if it dies early, it's not so bad since i only used 1 skill to generate that DoT. If it doesnt die early, then at least i have a good buffed DoT going on all that time.
     

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  16. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    Yeah and really, in my experience, it's very rare for trash mobs to last long enough to make the Impulse Drive combo worthwhile.

    I'd expect most DRGs to be using their AoEs at the start of a group of mobs (plus cooldowns in between). By the time you've reached ~0 TP and then used Invigorate to get back up ~500, the damage you've done with your AoEs plus whatever the other DPS has done (and chances are their AoE damage has been higher than yours), most the mobs will be somewhere around 70% HP or less. The Thrust combo is by far the better option at that point.
     

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  17. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Hm... i don´t know. I used only Impulse Drive Combo for the lol after I started playing again and completely ignored Thrust Combo(just to get used to Dragoon again). My gear is weak and I play with a lv 50 limit yet(didn´t register Heavendward yet)... still doing more dps than most other Dragoons I have in party, on single targets. So either many Dragoons are bad or I don´t know.

    My assume is:

    Most Dragoons use the full "Dragoon" rotation, but not good enough.
    They use the "non basic cooldowns" the wrong way(those have a huge influence in DPS, right used).
    Full Dragoon Combo doesn´t forgive mistakes.

    Theoretically the Thrust Combo is better on paper, I can´t deny that. But I don´t think it´s not that important if you use it or not, the bigger influence comes through usage of non basic cooldown skills, critrate, buff usage, etc...

    BUT still Impulse Drive combo is always the starter, there is nothing to discuss about it.

    Oh and ofc I talk about bosses and stuff which lasts long... for trash there is Doom Spike+non basic cooldown skills:joy:



    Btw, Dragoon seems to be the strongest DPS class after Ninja now from what I have seen. With same gear obviously. The best on AoE power... but that´s nothing new.
     

    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  18. Bizant

    Bizant Scion

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    My man. I 100% guarantee that if you are not using the Dragoon rotation on bosses, you are doing much, much less DPS than you could be doing.

    It's better on paper and in practice. There really is no discussion here :funnyguy:
     

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  19. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    SMN is the strongest DPS in AoE at the moment. Bane has been buffed to affect unlimited mobs. So when a single mob is inflicted by multiple buffed DoT, and then got "Baned", you can have 20 mobs all melted together within 20 seconds. Together with Painflare and Deathflare, there's no other classes that can do as much AoE damage at the moment. Current, SMN actually makes it really hard for classes like PLD to keep aggro these days. Although, player skills do apply a lot. Some SMN are so strong that I could barely keep aggro, other does so little damage that even a Bard can out DPS them.

    As for single target DPS, all 3 melee - Ninja, Monk and Dragoon - are pretty close at the moment. It comes down to situations and players' skills. Dragoon does have the armor advantage of being a bit tougher against physical damage though.
     

  20. Novaultima

    Novaultima Crystal Brave

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    Against multiple mobs I just use Doom Spike + non basic CD skills, gg.

    And from my experience mobs last longer than combo to Chaos Thrust usually... I had so many DD´s with like ilv170 gear in lv 50 instances and the mobs lasted really longer. Refering to the new content, from what I have readed, mobs and bosses last even longer than usual...


    So actually my oppinion is that Impulse Drive Combo + Doom Spike is still better at trash(multiple targets).
     

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