Paladin 3.1 Paladin Changes

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by Elivercury, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Hey guys. I'm sure a full list of 3.1 preliminary patch notes will be put up soon, but thought I'd slap up the PLD changes and discuss (as I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion). For those who haven't seen or would prefer not to read through tonnes of text here are the changes:

    Class/
    Job Action/Status Changes
    Gladiator

    Paladin Shield Swipe Is now an ability and does not trigger global cooldown.
    Recast time has been adjusted to 15 seconds.
    Potency has been reduced from 210 to 150.

    Goring Blade TP cost has been reduced from 60 to 50.

    Shield Bash TP cost has been reduced from 150 to 120.

    So there is a bit of confusion here for me, in that does Shield Swipe being an ability mean it has no TP cost?

    If so, then this is great and fixes a lot of PLD's problems. Despite what was said about not improving PLD DPS, if you can throw out a free shield swipe every 6th GCD, it's still a bit of a DPS gain for free. If it still costs TP then this is a terrible move and SE have literally lost the plot.

    Goring blade TP cost reduction is nice, but I'd really have preferred the reduction to be on fast blade. While you'll use Goring blade every 3rd combo, this 10 TP decrease will at best add an additional 20-30 seconds onto the duration before PLD run dry. Shield bash TP...is running out of TP due to shield bash a thing? Typically anything requiring reliable stuns has had melee DPS do it or a PLD OT doing it. Not going to complain, but not setting my world on fire.

    Honestly, I don't see this patch really making much difference to anything. PLD will still have serious TP issues as we spam out 123 combo non-stop, and potentially the issue is even worse now as we can't swap to spamming shield swipe once we're out of TP...do we just auto attack? Minor DPS gain I guess, but I'm certainly not singing that all the PLD's problems have been fixed.

    Would love to hear some thoughts from other career tanks/paladins.
     

  2. Jinzuku

    Jinzuku Vice Administrator

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  3. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Sorry, I hope it didn't come across as snarky or anything. As adults I'm sure the majority of us here understand the difficulty of work commitments! I just wanted to discuss PLD changes ASAP.
     

  4. Jinzuku

    Jinzuku Vice Administrator

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    It didn't come across that way don't worry. I was actually just letting you know they are there now :)

    I'm sure a lot of thread will be created off the contents of the patch notes.
     

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  5. SunnyTzu

    SunnyTzu Adventurer

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    That'd be great if they got to our other utility skills from heavensward.
     

  6. MasterBox

    MasterBox Scion

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    When I first seen this I got really excited, I was hoping to find something along the lines of sword Oath being buffed. 50 potency to auto attack.. :shifty:
    Maybe 50 potency to all skills would be nice.

    Swipe is a nice change as i find myself deciding what skill i should use over swipe. I try to use it often and a way to help conserve TP.. Although.. reducing its potency is a bummer.


    Yay a reduction on shield bash.. now i can actually apply it more often
     

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  7. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

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    Shield Swipe being oGCD means a bit more DPS, a bit more aggro and less ability to remain active while managing TP. (I was originally told this was Shield Bash and I flipped a chable.)

    Shield Bash is an amazing pld skill, but outside of T5 it's never been really utilized in raid scenarios. It helps in situations like big pulls that get messy where you can spam stun mobs to reduce damage, or places like Qarn where you can focus target one bee and burn the other, able to stun both as needed, etc. The TP cost is an issue but only in unique situations. My guess would be that they intend to add mechanics that make the stun more useful.

    I'm glad for the goring blade reduction.
     

    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
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  8. SunnyTzu

    SunnyTzu Adventurer

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    The tp is nice. But I wish clemency or divine veil got reworked
     

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  9. Ivy

    Ivy Bounty Hunter II

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    A4S and A3S both require stuns for Living Liquid adds and the manipulator's legs - stunning is important this raid tier, and doubly important that you don't overlap stuns on A3S adds in particular (it will cause an immediate wipe if any manage to cast haste). They just can't be like T5 where having a PLD offtank was the most preferred because of constant stunning, since that'd cause DRKs to whine in particular.
     

  10. Sword

    Sword Scion

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    Since it's becoming an ability I highly doubt Shield Swipe will consume TP anymore, the note probably just got lost somewhere in translation or slipped their minds.

    Still, I highly welcome the change, not only does it retain it's new enmity bonus that came with Heavensward, but it also doubles as 600 extra dps potency per minute which makes it more powerful than Spirits within (due to spirits potency fluctuating based on HP %). Just don't say anything to SE about it being a DPS boost otherwise they might redact it.
     

  11. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    It's likely a very tiny buff on PLD DPS. Did they mention if Shield Swipe is still activated by block? If yes, then there is an RNG aspect to it. Not triggering global cooldown is good, so we can weave it between GCDs, but how long is the CD of the swipe itself? If it takes 30 sec, then it's not going to help. If it's 2.5 sec, then it depends on RNG of blocking.

    To be frank, i do not see this resolving the existing problem of PLD. They mentioned the problem is not from the class - the class is strong that it can really buffer damage like no other. The problem is current Savage content favoring a DPS-like tank over a strong defensive tank. Yet, i am not seeing them adding any content to fix this. Problem continues...
     

  12. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I don't know why they didn't add in a variable that takes into account the party you have. Oh there's a PLD and a DRK, we'll do more Physical Damage than Magical. Boom PLD is viable and Drk can just go apeshit on DPS.
     

  13. Sword

    Sword Scion

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    They didn't say anything about the block to activate stipulation, so I assume it remains the same, but with Sheltron and Block checks > Parry checks it's not a major issue to activate. I agree though, it's a rather minor buff and doesn't help OT DPS outside of using cover or the occasional physical AoE, however it is a decent support buff at least to our lackluster enmity (which is a wonder why they didn't adjust Savage/RoH's modifiers). And while the current Savage tend's to work against PLD's, it has been plagued with intermittent issues due to it's own lack of party support and plethora of arguably situational abilities.
     

  14. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    With Bulwark and Sheltron, one can certainly use a lot more Shield Swipe. I'm just unhappy with how they did another "half-axx" job again to fix problems... from 210 down to 150 potency... and under Shield Oath penalty... it's barely anything... It would probably be fine if they have fixed the Shield Oath / Sword Oath switching issue... Then one can start with Shield Oath, tank for awhile, then switch to Sword Oath, and DPS while popping Bulwark and Sheltron... Then pop back Shield Oath...
     

  15. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    I'd note the cooldown is 15 seconds, so you can probably use it around 4 times a minute. 600 additional potency every minute. Better than a kick in the teeth I guess, but likely to be pretty negligible.

    I actually think that it has possibly made the class worse, as that is the only sustainable TP move gone - granted this won't make PLD run out of TP any quicker really, but it will mean they've lost a relatively consistent source of DPS once they're out and will pretty much just have to auto attack. Possibly use uncomboed goring blade? Not ideal.
     

  16. Sword

    Sword Scion

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    That's been a subjective note really, on average even spamming a RoH combo produces more DPS over time than utilizing Shield Swipe consistently. So aside from trying to get a quick hate boost at the start, or stalling total TP loss you only hurt yourself by utilizing the ability constantly.
     

  17. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Right, shield swipe is a DPS loss and its primary use was once you had completely run out of TP. Given that none of these changes are going to stop PLD running out of TP at 2 mins 40 secs or so, I question where that leaves PLD once they are out of TP? Shield swipe is no longer an option. Spamming goring blade uncomboed is probably the nearest alternative, but at 50TP rather than 40, this is still fairly ineffectual by comparison.

    Given PLDs serious TP issues in longer fights still exists, I suspect this change may have actually hurt PLD long-term DPS rather than helped it. Sure for those first 3 minutes or so, you'll get 1800 additional potency, however you've then removed the primary stalling tactic for PLDs to avoid emptying their TP, meaning that in fights longer than 3 minutes, the DPS dropoff is now probably even more severe.

    Obviously this is just theorycrafting and haven't been able to test this yet. That being said, given the problems with PLD haven't been fixed and PLD was still going to be a second rate tank even if this didn't have further TP issues, I don't really see it makes much difference.
     

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  18. MasterBox

    MasterBox Scion

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    I am in agreement about these changes not making or breaking PLD

    Then again.. without extensive testing we will never know. Starting tomorrow i will start testing

    :p
     

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  19. Patchkin

    Patchkin New Member

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    I'm still pretty new but from my research into the different tank classes I believe that the Warrior gets a TP regen passive and DRK gets a MP regen passive. Does the Paladin get anything like that at 60. I'm 52 right now and I think it's kind of strange that WAR gets good DPS with no major TP issues and the same with DRK even though it has a steeper learning curve with stance/cd management from what I hear.
    BTW can someone link me an in depth comparison of the pros and cons of each tank class. I'm not at end game yet, but all the way up to 52 I haven't run into any groups that bar me from parties due to my class. (side note: haven't done a raid yet.)
    To tell the truth I really like the PLD and would like to understand the communities woes on this subject.
     

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  20. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Warrior get an ability that can restore 200 TP if they are in their DPS stance. Given we’ve 1000 TP, 200 is a pretty big deal.

    DRK don’t get any additional passive MP regen, but can regen both HP and MP from their combos – in a similar way to how PLD’s riot blade works. DRK has better sustainability than PLD due to their combo being slightly cheaper (10tp less) and the option to swap between MP based attacks and TP based attacks.

    PLD get riot blade and sheltron for regening MP, and they do a pretty respectable job of it all in all. Both will give somewhere in the region of 15-20% of your max MP back. The issue of course being that MP isn’t really much of a limiting resource for PLD as unless we’re trying to get some quick AoE hate, we have relatively little to spend our MP on. In boss fights our MP is near useless. TP is the PLD’s main issue.

    To put it simply the roles of the three tanks are roughly:

    PLD – very large amount of physical damage mitigation, poor damage, some questionable utility

    WAR – lots of HP, reasonable HP restoring abilities, great damage, squishier than PLD

    DRK – higher magic defence, similar physical defence to warrior, lots of HP and MP draining abilities, good damage but less than WAR

    Honestly, if you want more in depth than that your best bet is reading guides on how to play the classes and learning what makes them tick – that is essentially what someone would have to copy and paste here to fully answer your question.

    The primary issues PLDs are facing are twofold really – the first being that the current endgame content is almost actively designed around them not being in it. It features relatively low amounts of damage and it is primarily magic damage, meaning that all three tanks are capable of main tanking, with DRK having an edge due to their increased magic resistance. Additionally it features very high damage checks for the team, so much so that tanks and healers are being required to throw a significant amount in. As a result this means that PLD isn’t required for its superior physical mitigation and is actively avoided due to their lacklustre DPS which is behind WAR/DRK even before we run dry of TP at the 3 minute mark (whereas they’ll probably go for 4-5 minutes before running dry)

    The second issue is simply that PLD is feeling a bit weak in comparison to the other two classes. Many people have their own views on what is missing and what needs to be had. Commonly agreed is that PLD seriously needs better TP management. It’s also fairly widely agreed that the additional utility skills gained in 50-60 are pretty useless. Beyond that people want the ability to “stance dance” like WAR/DRK, AoE offensive abilities and a variety of other things. I believe a lot of the upset stems from the fact that up until the expansion WAR was pretty much the less desirable tank in most difficult content and PLD was king, whereas now it has very much flipped the other way.

    If you want to know more than I suggest you read any tanking thread in the past couple of months as it has been discussed and complained about to death and beyond (by me as much as anyone else).
     

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